Black Rise

How To Unlock Your Potential Through Heritage and Resilience - With Michelle Gayle

• Black Rise • Season 1 • Episode 29

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What if your heritage could be the key to unlocking your potential? Our latest episode of the Black Rise Podcast features the incredible Michelle Gayle, a beacon of resilience and achievement. Michelle opens up about her upbringing in Northwest London with her Caribbean parents, sharing how her father's empowering stories of their Maroon ancestry instilled a profound belief in resilience and success. Discover how these narratives of resistance against colonisers have become a cornerstone in Michelle's life, shaping her journey as a musician, actress, and changemaker.

Imagine being chosen to fight simply because you exude strength. Michelle recounts her tumultuous school years where conflict seemed inevitable, until a transformative moment with her headmistress, Mrs. Best. This episode highlights the pivotal role of positive influences and the nurturing environment of a stage school that fostered Michelle’s talents. From a school singer to landing a role in “Grange Hill,” Michelle’s story is a testament to the power of dedicated educators and a strong support system in overcoming challenges and unlocking potential.

Finally, we delve into Michelle's disciplined path to success and her journey of financial independence at 14. By seizing opportunities with creativity and empowerment, Michelle navigates the entertainment industry’s systemic barriers with resilience and adaptability. We also explore the broader importance of understanding African history beyond narratives of enslavement and the necessity of allies in elevating marginalised voices. Join us for an episode that promises elevation, motivation, and empowerment, as we celebrate collective growth and the impact of rising together.

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Speaker 1:

something in his speech I thought that really, really resonated with me, because he said people think you're extraordinary because you've achieved this and you've achieved that. He said, but all you really have to be is what most people aren't. And he said and that's consistent, hardworking, disciplined. Because what you start to realize is when people keep going on and on about how did you do this, how do you do that, you actually start to realize that what you really were was disciplined.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Black Rise podcast, your gateway to inspiring conversation with la crème de la crème of Black talent, who are leaders of seven figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. I'm your host, flavilla Fong-Gang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on this journey. Black Rise isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our mission is to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and enterprise. We strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackrisecom to find out more. Visit theblackrisecom to find out more. Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode on the Black Rise Podcast, and it's been brilliant.

Speaker 2:

I don't know about you, but I received recently a very nice message from a young girl, and if you listen to this, I'm talking about you. You messaged me and you told me that you really enjoy all the amazing leaders who are sharing their advice and guiding you for success. All the amazing leaders who are sharing their advice and guiding you for success. I think it's so important we start with that, because we sometimes don't realize the experiences and the hurdles we go through can inspire and help somebody else. And that's really why I love doing the Black Rice podcast. And let me tell you about our next guest. It's interesting because you know you look at someone and say, wow, such an achievable human. I mean, there you go. Now they're your friends and you convinced them to be on the podcast with you and Michelle Gell I don't even know where to start Michelle Gell, because she's such an accomplished individual, from musician to actress, to activist, to change makers. Tell me where to start, michelle. I mean you probably have 25 million titles, but so good to have you thank you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have had a lot of titles. I must admit I've been um applying myself, as it were, for a very long time, which is probably why I've got all those titles. It's old age.

Speaker 2:

Please stop it. Not a wrinkle in the surface whatsoever, but I think you know the way I like to do this podcast is really to understand the journey to success, and your success has definitely been there and is still there, and I think the best way is to think about you when you are a young girl. So I like to start that journey, and what people love to understand is really much how did you grow up? Where did you grow up? What's your heritage and maybe people that influenced you when you were young? Was it mother, brother, sister or cousin? How was it like for you when you were?

Speaker 1:

young. So I was brought up in northwest London, in Halston, nw10, with Caribbean parents. My dad's Jamaican, a very proud Jamaican descendant of Maroons. I don't know if you know the Nanny Maroon story.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I do, I do, I do maroons. I don't know if you know the nanny maroon story.

Speaker 1:

yes, I do, I do, I do, yeah, so my dad always very proudly told us that we're descended from maroons, so we can achieve anything.

Speaker 1:

Michelle, explain people who don't know what the maroons are, just so they know so the maroons in jamaica in fact nanny maroon, I think originated from ghana and they did rebellious acts against the English colonizers in Jamaica at that time and they actually defeated them to the point where the English gave the Maroons their own land and said we can't fight you guys, we give up, you guys get your land and leave us alone. Right. So they're very respected in Jamaica because they fought back and they resisted, yeah, and they won effectively. So my dad always used to tell us you know, you're this maroon, you can achieve anything.

Speaker 2:

And it's interesting because, like my stepfather is from the Caribbean and he used to tell me about this as well, about the stories, and they were called noir marron, which means black, brown, and how they were. You know and you have history about this journey and I remember some artists actually took the same name noah maroon to be able to express how they feel about that. You know, caribbean heritage and what they've gone through. Because I think it's important, right, we always think about I hate that time of slavery. It's always like negative oppression whatsoever. But what about the fighters? People fought back and I think it's also important to celebrate them. Oh yeah no, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Because obviously the impression is that we were enslaved and somehow we just put up with it, when in fact people resisted and the maroons are one of those sets of people who who resisted and won. It doesn't mean other people didn't resist, because I think people are resisting everywhere. In fact, the myth of Jamaica is that all the slaves that ran away from the Caribbean the myth is that they were captured. They were put on Jamaica because it was one of the larger islands. It'd be harder for them to escape. So Jamaicans always say we come from a very strong set of people, because we were the people who were resisting constantly, to the point where they had to put. They made us a nation of strong resistors. You know, that's the belief in Jamaica.

Speaker 2:

Which explains why you're always winning the race.

Speaker 1:

That's why, if you think of how many, I said to my Nigerian friend the other day, how many people do you think live in Jamaica? Like what's the population? He was like 50 million, 70 million, it's like no, I don't. I think. I think it might just about be at three million now in Jamaica. So for such a small nation to make such a large impact on the world.

Speaker 2:

This is why Jamaicans say it's from that origin story of how we got there imagination of strong resistors, strong resistors, and I love how this resistance was able to translate into art. You know, in so many forms and of ways that people express, have a film, you know. You know music to. You know, to sports, to everything else, that the culture and it's beautiful thing.

Speaker 1:

But let's come back to you in terms of you know, you say your father was a proud man yeah, my dad is jamaican, my mom's from grenada, um, the spice island, um, and they my mom got here when she was 11, I think. I think my dad was a bit older, um, and this was in northwest london and they had me and I was brought up in halston. I was brought up a road. It's like we owned our homes. It was like a road where you were either West Indian, african, irish or Indian. Those were the only people I knew. I didn't know anyone who was actually English on those roads. It was really strange actually.

Speaker 1:

So everyone was some kind of immigrant class. Their parents were immigrants and so we all really got on. In fact, I'd go to the Irish people. They'd give me their traditional food. I'd go to Bina Patel next door and she'd let me make chapatis and teach me all.

Speaker 1:

So everyone really got to learn about each other's cultures. There. There was no real oh, you're different, we don't like you. It was very much oh, we're all quite similar. Really, we've all got parents who come from somewhere else. So let's get to know each other's cultures. So in that sense it was very culturally rich. It was a mainly black school and if you weren't black you were from an immigrant class and so from from like five to eight, I would say my school experience was very um, I didn't really experience racism at that point because everyone was an immigrant of some sort. There was only one time when we went to the butchers and my mom was wiping my face and the English butcher went it doesn't come off, love. And my mom very quickly said we don't want it to. And I thought oh, okay.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that's the time. It's interesting because I think about my story as well. I didn't grow up without an experience of racism because poverty was the thing that we had in common, so we didn't really have to go beyond that, and I think it's interesting that sometimes these elements of brings us together and we know the things that you know people in wealth-free situations see more apparent to distinguish themselves from the others, right, interesting yeah, and I think as we get older, um, that infiltrates and people start trying to pick everyone off.

Speaker 1:

Wow, when you're really young, like I said, like between naught to eight, we all got on. It's only as we got older and society starts determining how your relationship should be. It's a really strange thing when that happens, when society starts to dictate how you should react to a black person or an Irish person or an Asian person or an African person um it's you.

Speaker 1:

You start to see it happening. I mean, what happened with me is I changed schools, so I ended up going from a very, very um ethnic school to a very, very white middle class private school, um, where there were a few black students, um, and so that was a real culture shock yeah, very good.

Speaker 2:

it's only because this is you on the public eye, but your family was not in the, I would say say showbiz, not at all.

Speaker 1:

Not at all. No, what happened is that I was at school and I was not behaving. I was. We lived on houses where we had bought our home, but most of the people at the school I went to were probably I say mostly, were probably, I'd say mostly council estate and they experienced poverty in a way that we didn't, even though I wouldn't say that we had money at all. You know, there were still times when there wasn't hot water. You know, there were still times when I made water and sugar as a drink. We invented that. We thought it was a really good drink, we actually liked it.

Speaker 1:

But I did notice the difference between between us and and the kids from the council's, that you just seemed a little, just a little more angry with their situation and very much. To survive in that school you had to fight and they'd literally say once a week, who's the strongest girl in the school or who's strongest girl of the year, and so we used to fight, and I used to fight a lot, because they'd always say, michelle, we think you're the strongest, you've got to fight this person. They'd actually set up the fights, oh my god, I know, sounds like prison no, it was really hardcore.

Speaker 1:

Wow and um to one year. They said, right, michelle, you gotta fight your best friend. And and we did. We had a massive fight. Wow, who won? Who won? Who won? I remember winning that. I did win that fight, but I felt so ashamed. My parents are like so peaceful, they're strong advocates, they're strong activists, but they're not violent. My dad is like the gentlest man on the planet, you know.

Speaker 1:

It's not like I've ever seen any kind of violence at home. It's just. It really shows how you can take on your environment and you have to survive in it. And to survive in that particular environment, you had to be able to fight. If you weren't able to fight, you were going to get beaten up. But that was the trade-off and so, rather than getting beaten up, I had to fight.

Speaker 1:

And what happened is the headmistress went to my parents house and said listen, michelle shouldn't be at this school. This, you're not the type of parents that should have Michelle at this school. She loves singing, she loves dancing. Um, I was doing well at school academically. So she was like, academically they'd moved me up a year. So they're like there's nothing wrong with academics. Obviously she's doing very well and she's strong academically. But this is the wrong school because she's getting drawn in. And I thought I was, really I think she was from Bermuda, mrs Best. So she was my first black headmistress, anyway, and she was so sophisticated, so beautiful, and she took the time out to leave that school and come to my parents' house personally and tell them we don't think Michelle should be at the school, you know, we just don't think it's right.

Speaker 1:

So my parents had heard about this stage called Barbara Speak, and they knew how much I loved singing and dancing, just as a kid. Um, my mum used to put on uh shows, uh, for the community, because she was a community activist and she'd always um recruit me and the nearest family to go and perform, you know, because we're the easy, easy people to recruit and rehearse um. And so she could see that I really enjoyed it and loved it. And Miss Bess had seen that, and so she said you know, do something like that, make her put her energy into something that she's really interested in, rather than in fighting or trying to impress these set of people. And so, said, so done. My parents said, had a meeting, said okay, we'll put the money together and we'll send it to this stage school. And it was a completely change of different environment, completely different environment.

Speaker 2:

It's beautiful. Do you know what's beautiful about that story? And I hear quite often, the importance of people in the education sector can really change our life. Look, I'm listening to your story and I've listened to other stories of leaders on this podcast. Say that you know someone from that school, say, yeah, I can see your talent and I'm going to get you out of this. And sometimes I feel like, you know, we don't give enough credit to these teachers. We don't do it. I've always remembered this principle. She literally changed my life. I would not be where I am right now if it wasn't for her. And sometimes we listen so much more when it comes from a stranger than when it comes to our family. And you know the look at you know I mean, it's not all her, but she was able to enable you to become the best version of who you are. Yes, she was.

Speaker 1:

It's so stunning she was, and that also happened at stage school. When I went to stage school, it was a white singing teacher who loved soul music and Bob Marley and I was the only black girl in my class and so she decided that I was going to be her singer just because she loved that type of music, and she really, really, really backed me. Me. She just backed me. And when you look back on your life, I honestly don't know how people make it without incremental bits of validation, because I can honestly say that is those little bits of validation, like you're saying Mrs Best saying take her out, she deserves this or she deserves that, and that teacher saying, right, you're saying Mrs Best saying take her out, she deserves this or she deserves that, and that teacher saying, right, you're going to be my singer, I'm going to teach you, I'm going to give you solos If you're not getting that. I really admire people who do well despite not having that kind of validation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think everybody does, isn't it? We all unconsciously get it now with people that we're close to, or sometimes indirect, or things that we relate to, and it's so important because if we listen to the wrong advice, we can literally turn our life completely upside down. But this is why it's important, and I say that to people. Nobody achieves success on their own. There's people around you nobody knows how do you fight against negativity?

Speaker 1:

now in my area? Because I was going to this different school and the kids weren't happy about that and they did used to, you know, make comments or bully me or but. But even then it's weird because my parents are so positive and at school I was getting validation. Even then I could sense that it was because I was given an opportunity that they don't have. Even at that young age, even how upsetting it was, I still knew I had an opportunity that they didn't and I just thought I can't waste it. No, you can't, I can't waste it.

Speaker 2:

So what happened now? Where did you start? So now your career, your journey into actress, singer. What talent did you start with? I'm curious, what do you think was your first talent?

Speaker 1:

So it's weird because at school they'd chosen me. I would say at school I was known as the singer, as in. I mainly got singing solos at school shows. But my first real main part on tv was acting in Grange Hill. But I got that because I had to play a rapper called Fiona Wilson and she was into rap and I was massively into rap. So you know, when sometimes they say a job has your name on it, that's when you know chance meets opportunity, right, or luck meets opportunity, because I, or hard work meets opportunity, because I have put in my 10,000 hours on rap. Let me tell you, like there was not a rap artist, so you know hit song that I didn't know. So when I did that audition they literally just heard me infuse about rap music and just felt just give her the job. I mean, she really loves rap, doesn't even matter if she can act, because she, she, she can just be herself talking about rap and it works.

Speaker 2:

So that was my luck and that's what you're saying, like make it easy for people to say, yes, yes, you know that you craft whatever you want to be known for, be the best as much as you can, and the and this is why, when you say that opportunities, I think something like opportunities. Hard work makes opportunity exactly, and that's that's a formula for what people call luck. But luck is exactly that you know. Essentially, you don't just wake up another day and then something happens to you, somebody knock at the door, wow, so you got the part I got the part which I loved doing Grange Hill it was.

Speaker 1:

It was one of those shows I don't know if you were here at the time, but it was like every kid watched it. So it was really weird being 14 and suddenly all the hip-hop shows and stuff I used to go to, like everyone knew my age group, knew who I was and, um, yeah, and that was hard when you're 14. Um, your life changes, but for the better. You know, I started paying my own school fees so that relieved my parents of that. So I've been paying my way since I was 14 in life, you know, it's all I know is to is to kind of pay my way pay your way.

Speaker 2:

But you know one thing about you is that you are very humble. Because when you get so big and famous, the thing about you don't have a big head and you could have easily one thing that when you become famous at a young age you can go the you know the wrong way of like. Okay, you start doing all sorts of nonsense whatsoever, you start putting yourself on a pedestal, don't respect everybody. How did you keep yourself sane? Not let celebrity affect you I would say my family.

Speaker 1:

So I'm I'm the first on my jamaican side, on the first of over 50 grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Wow. So the Gayle family. They're really positive and they back you. But but what you know about them is they're there if you fall, they'll catch you if you fall.

Speaker 1:

And my mum and dad were activists at the time. My mum started a organization called Black Insight and she used to teach mainly women how to speed type and do um shorthand so they could get jobs in the city. So because a lot of the girls were young moms, she had a crash there. So she said right, you got no excuse because you can drop your kids at the crash and you can learn these skills and get into work. And my mum also taught us about black history. So she'd take us to cultural events like Ipitombi and Alvin Ailey, then she'd take us to libraries and we'd learn about black history.

Speaker 1:

So you know people say, oh, they only found out about black history later on. Like my mum was educating me about black history when I was like eight or nine, like I knew about Naysha, sancho and all those people when I was really young. So I was always grounded in a sense of our ancestors and our heritage and because my mum and dad were so well known. It's a shame really that I had that pressure, but in my head I couldn't let them down. I can't go back to Holston and destroy their legacy. That's the way I saw it. So I was like a representation of their hard work, in my opinion, and so I was really, really, really, um, disciplined. I would say. If there's anything such as talent when it comes to me, I would say it's discipline. Yes, it would. It would be discipline. It's not that I'm the best singer or the best writer or the best, but what I will 100, 100 do is apply myself.

Speaker 1:

I heard um Tom Brady speak. I don't know if you know who he is. Yes, he's the American football player and in fact he said something in his speech. I thought that really, really resonated with me, because he said people think you're extraordinary because you've achieved this and you've achieved that. He said, but all you really have to be is what most people aren't. And he said and that's consistent, hardworking, disciplined. Because what you start to realize is when people keep going on and on about how did you do this, how do you do that, you actually start to realize that what you really were was disciplined.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and what you say is so important because when you hear the stories of these amazing accomplished individuals, were was disciplined. Yes, and what you say is so important because when you hear the stories of all these amazing accomplished individuals, nothing what they say is impossible, right, nothing's like wow, okay, you need, you had loads of money. Some of the people who have had interview on this podcast come from very modest background. Yeah, but I'm gonna stop them. Exactly what you say is that people put you on the pedestal because they look at your achievement and so on, but they actually don't see what got you there. And that consistency and I would say to people like the things that you don't want to do is what you're supposed to do first.

Speaker 2:

I read a book called Eat the Frog. I don't know if it's the right one, but people check it out. Eat the Frog first, which means always start your day with your most important task, the task that you don't want to do because you want to put it at the end of the day. Start with this and you will see that when you get that, the rest, get most of your day, accomplish the rest of your day with success. It's exactly that. Like nothing about what has been shared on the podcast is like oh okay, this is a magic formula. No, there's no magic formula.

Speaker 2:

No, there's no magic formula. No, there isn't. Can you be consistent with your work?

Speaker 1:

Be consistent and there's two things. I'd advise people also. Not that I can advise anyone, but what I know is my mindset has always been apply myself to the best of my ability, without comparing myself to what someone else did. So if the teacher would say, write a story, it has to be one side. I very often write 13 sides for the villa. Like who does that? 12 or 13? But for me that's what I wanted to do, because I wanted to get my story out right. So the teacher look at this and go you've written 13, you're in 13 sizes like mad. But but that's just who I was.

Speaker 1:

But when people have achieved I don't get jealous and that's why are they there. Blah, blah, blah. If all it does is inspire me, I don't even understand that kind of hateration like now. There are parts of me that understand that loads of people don't get opportunities, so a part of them resents if it looks like one person's getting all the opportunities. There are parts of me that understand that loads of people don't get opportunities, so a part of them resents if it looks like one person's getting all the opportunities. A part of me can kind of understand that from an empathy point of view, a person that I am. That person can only inspire me. They can't make me hate, they can't make me jealous, they can't make me angry. All they can do is make me go. I'm going back to the drawing board. I need to be better. That's all that person can do. And I would say to anyone if you see someone out there and you think I don't know why they're there, get on with it. Then you get there.

Speaker 2:

Do you know it's so funny? You say that? Because one thing that I'm exactly like when I somebody says, oh okay, if I can do it, I can do it too, but not in a way of I'm envious, and what I would do is I would approach this person so tell me how you did it. Obviously we can connect and so on, I would do right. People don't actually think about asking like, how did you get this? I'm just open to tell you how I've done it right and then figure out.

Speaker 2:

I remember the first time I got on a video it's like, okay, what's this? And I literally checked out the video station and it showed you exactly how you can apply, because my fingers and this is why our presentation is important, because we have disqualified so often that, oh, it's not for me. Just we're talking about this as we are in in june 2024 and a week ago I was in can lions. Canine was a week ago I was in Cannes Lions.

Speaker 2:

Cannes Lions was a festival of creativity and for years I've dismissed myself because it was 5,000 for a ticket. I was like I better just do my money, it's 25,000. And then people tell you actually you don't need a ticket, you know you can go to so many future events and have the best time. And then For me for me, I know, every time I'm up on LinkedIn I see it's like that's great. That's exactly what I want, but not just for you to see me, but to see that I'm trying to inspire you and see the possibilities of what is possible for you. Right, that's right, and I want to share, because sometimes we don't realize that we can help somebody by just telling our story but also the importance of not self-disqualifying ourselves from opportunities that are just waiting for us.

Speaker 1:

So important, yeah, and not letting someone else's achievements think that you can't get there because it's like you said. Lean in, create that community and actually there's room for all of us. Yes, in fact, I would say, together we have a much better chance of achieving our dreams than as individuals.

Speaker 2:

As we continue this engaging conversation, remember that Black Rise is more than just a podcast. We're a dynamic platform where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and black-owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where black excellence thrives globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five-star review on itune 100. It's funny.

Speaker 2:

You feel like you've just heard my speech and I was saying that, like unity is the most important part. Right now. I feel scattered and try to do I can try to achieve something on my own, but if I join arm with you, I will definitely go further. You know, to this nation, one thing about you is that and people were thinking about starting a career in entertainment as you went from, you know, being an actress to being a singer, writing your own novel, uh, e-standards and so on I'm curious people to want to. You know, think about, about you know the all entertainment space and creativity space, how to navigate effectively and your journey to you know, to pivoting and not people, but because sometimes people love to box you. That, okay, we just know you for that. You can't do anything else right, but you've done that so well.

Speaker 1:

I refused to be boxed in simply because when I was at um stage school and I was the only black girl in my class, the headmistress used to very often say will all the white girls aged between 10 and 16 go downstairs for an audition? And I was very often the one black girl in my class as everyone said goodbye, bye, wish me luck, wish me luck. And they went downstairs, right. So one thing I knew from a very young age is that I would have far less opportunities to get an acting job than my white counterparts. So I always knew I need options. I need options because I get far less auditions, which means I've got far less chance of booking a job, and so some people might call it insecurity.

Speaker 1:

But it's not like I felt insecure, I just felt like I need more, because I'm not going to just rely on this one thing, because I've learned my lesson from a very young age, at school, that I'm going to have less options. And so I cultivated all those different things and took those opportunities, because I knew that when save my acting's down, I can do my singing, if my singing's down, I can do my writing, and I can keep going between those three things to make a living, keep going between those three things. To make a living and that is actually how I've managed to make a living is by being able to apply myself in those three realms, and so if something's not happening in one, it doesn't matter, because I've literally always had at least two jobs, because I've always been working on two different skills at a time and people think I'm mad. People think I'm mad for doing it.

Speaker 2:

No, I don't think you're mad. I think it's so important to understand. I think this is what's important is that am I in a position of power where I can change the environment that I am in, or do I know exactly how I can navigate for that environment and still achieve success for myself? And this is so important? Like, the girls that we have as black people are very different than the girls that white people have. You know they're born in wealth, they have connections, they have you know, and also think about it like in the time where you are, the roles that they were giving to black people were very much, you know, the ghetto girl or whatever it is. So you didn't have those. You know lawyer roles, where we were characterized in such a way to keep on emphasizing the stereotype. And this is what you do.

Speaker 2:

I have to realize the environment that I'm in. I can't probably at this stage change anything about it, but I'm still going to have to learn how to navigate and I think it's so important, especially for people who are at the beginning of their career or maybe an environment that they don't have the power yet to influence. How can you navigate for this? And this is a very important lesson to learn to grow and not be like you know what. Nobody wants me. I'm going to give up, I'm not going to do it anymore. That's like, okay, well, okay, cool. You always have to analyze situations. Okay, what can I control right now? That's right. How can I navigate for these things? I'm not a white girl. What do I have? How can I play? And you did that. This is a perfect example of adaptability to thrive.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly for the reasons that you've described is okay, if you won't let me in that door. How about this? How about that? How about this? Because one thing about me is no isn't no to me, Like it might hurt for about 10 seconds and I'm already thinking you mean not yet. That's how quickly my mind switches that around into a no, it's a not yet, and I will be back and you will tell me yes. So that's how I am, and or I'm going to do something and you'll come back. That's literally how quickly my mind works, and I suppose that's again my luck, isn't it? That I can mentally take that knock and make it something that's a challenge rather than something that devastates me 100% For people who are listening.

Speaker 2:

If you have a power of influence, use it to change your industry. If you don't have it, you kind of have to still learning how to navigate, and I think that's so important and, um, yeah, what you're doing and so on. So I want to talk about something that is so important to you right now and I think that's where you're putting all your hard work and your sweat. Tell us about that journey to you. Know. Know, we talk about the Maroons, we talk about how your father was really, you know, and your mother raised you into that sense of pride of your Blackness, and I think it's so important. So we just don't have that DNA trauma to carry for life.

Speaker 2:

So the journey talk about the world we imagined. That's obviously how we met, because obviously we are big advocates of supporting the Black community. Tell us about this and how did that happen? Really, what led you to where you are? Because it's still creativity, but it's far away from showbiz.

Speaker 1:

Do you know? I think probably all of my life I was probably meant to be doing the world reimagined, but you have to get there step by step, don't you? Sometimes you resist the thing that's the closest to you and, like I said, my mum and dad were both community activists, to the point where it's really hard being the child of activists, actually, because it's almost like your parents don't belong to you, they belong to everyone. And it can be very hard growing up sharing your parents with all these people that rely on them or support them, and so it wasn't anything that I ever saw myself being, even though, naturally, in my own situations I would fight for other people, like if I was on these tenders and I thought they were doing something unfair, I would stand up, I'd always advocate for people. But even then I couldn't really join the dots for Villa to my parents. You know, it was just how I was.

Speaker 1:

And then came the opportunity of meeting someone at an event I was at, and he was a white guy and he said that he's half South African and half German. But one thing he knows is that, despite their flaws, he says, at least they attempted to deal with their troubled past. And he said to me he felt that, um, britain still hadn't really dealt with that, the transatlantic enslavement of africans, and the true implications of that, the true benefits that britain had from it, um, and and the repercussions that are still present today. And I thought, oh my, I've never had this conversation with a white person before. You know, I couldn't believe it. You know you're thinking this is something I say with my friends and family and we have that discussion quite often about how it's just swept under the carpet and all they say in Britain is we ended it.

Speaker 1:

How great are we, william Wilberforce, yada yada yada and I thought, wow, if I could have a conversation with a white person I just met, what if we could repeat that up and down the country and suddenly people could have a conversation? It wasn't a conversation of anger, it was a real conversation of, oh okay, we can share, we can actually talk about this in a really mature and empathetic manner, without getting angry about it but being very honest about it at the same time.

Speaker 2:

Can I ask you a question Like what do you want people to you know when you think about your project? And you're going to talk about it, and maybe I'm too ahead but what do you want people to do when they experience your project? So I will let you talk about the project more details, because I think it's something coming up as well. Yes, but what do you achieve from that?

Speaker 1:

I really want people to experience, first and foremost, that question that black people always get asked why are we here and where do you come from? Right, and I think black people we struggle when you say where do you come? Because I don't think we automatically say Britain or UK or England. We always go my dad's from Jamaica, my mom's from. Do you know what I mean? I'm telling you most black British people. You ask them where they come from. They don't unless they say Brixton or Halsden. Do you know what I mean when you talk about country-wise? They literally reach for where their parents are from or their heritage.

Speaker 1:

And that's the bit I want you to deal with is who are we, where do we come from and and why don't we lean into the things that connect us by acknowledging the past? Because we can't move forward until we acknowledge the past. So we are here because of the transatlantic enslavement of africans. That's why we're here, right, and that needs to be acknowledged fully before we can move on. And by that I mean in the sense of the money that was generated by that, by the enslavement of africans, actually the money that our ancestors have contributed to the british economy. Put the great into great britain.

Speaker 1:

If you think of the industrial revolution, um, when you study it here and they talk about the cotton mill and the importance of the cotton mill and it changed the game You're never told where the cotton came from and who picked the cotton.

Speaker 1:

So if the cotton mill was so important, that means my ancestors were very important because they were providing the cotton right Correct?

Speaker 1:

So it's about really teaching us and owning the contributions that we've all made, knowing that our contributions have been ignored and downplayed for too long. And we felt that the first phase of our project really wanted to explain that side of it just our ancestors' contributions, just how much we've contributed to making Britain great as it's called, and how much money people made from the trade and even people and things like the church great as it's called, and how much money people made from the trade and even people and things like the church organizations like the church are seen as holy and Christian made a lot of money from the enslavement of others and we wanted people to be fully aware of that so that they could also be aware of the repercussions that are still present today and the systems that have been set up to make us othered and make us feel less than and the most of that was invented during transatlantic enslavement, so we really wanted people to understand that but by also making sure people honour those who have done well despite the system.

Speaker 2:

Can I ask you a question, Michelle? Like people maybe who are like me, is that I think, and it's important to explain that I think the trauma and reliving it can be quite hard for.

Speaker 1:

It's very hard.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, very hard. Any kind of slavery movie, I do not watch it. No, I'm going to be honest with you.

Speaker 1:

I don't watch slavery movies. I've never seen what's that? The nat nat turners. What I've never seen, it I did see 12 years of slave and I'd never watch it again like the one time. Um, I watched roots when I was young, which is a classic. Huh, it's a classic.

Speaker 1:

What's important about enslavement, which we found very important in our project was, was, first and foremost, we did globes that were decorated individually by artists and they were put up and down the UK right and they created trails of nine to ten globes and those globes told a story which we called the Journey of Discovery. But the first part of that journey, that very first globe, was called Mother Africa and that was about what Africa was like before enslavement. Because we know, importantly, what Timbuktu was capable of, we know what we were capable of as a continent before enslavement and we felt that, first and foremost, people needed to know just how rich Africa was and still is in many ways, in culture, in philosophy, in art, in education, and so that was always our first globe. Because, like you, when enslavement, slave movies are only about slaves, that doesn't interest me. For us our journey was, enslavement was one part of the story that we told, but very much. Like I said, we started before africa and then we made sure we had a thing called abolition and emancipation. So you knew about the rebels and you knew about that. People were always resisting and there was never this uh, because people say, oh, it's different times then People didn't quite understand. No, no, no.

Speaker 1:

We make it very clear that people knew in real time that this was horrific and we had allies in real time saying there was a cotton factory up north near the Manchester area. They all walked out. These are white working class people. They walked out and said we're not making any more cotton for you. This is horrific, right? So let's not pretend that people didn't know that it was horrific at the time, because they did. So. These are things we educated people on, but we always moved on after that point in our journey of discovery into the things that Black people have brought to the country, like food, culture, art, vice, music yes, vice. We always made sure we hon honor those who've done well.

Speaker 1:

Despite it, and because we took everyone on this journey and we always said at the end that's why it's called the world reimagined how do you reimagine the world going forward now that you know the full truth. How do you see us moving forward? Um, and that was very successful for Villa 3.7 million visitors to our globe, 98% of them saying how positively they felt about it, that they'd like them to return. So we knew that we made an impact with that. And then we knew that if we're saying how do we reimagine the world, and people get saying you can't stop now, how do we get on with reimagining the world? Right, yes, and that's become our phase two project, which I can't because it's not announced yet. But I will tell you very much that our phase two project is very much about the now and about joining those dots even further and making those connections even deeper to really get on with allowing people to witness and experience equality. And it's really important that people recognise the talent that's out there that has been suppressed for a very long time or held back for a very long time or undermined for a very long time. Held back for a very long time or undermined for a very long time, and I know the amount of times I've done meetings when they say, oh, the quality isn't quite there, and they act like it's a. It's a pity process and squared.

Speaker 1:

I went to school with naomi campbell and I saw her do an interview and she spoke about her allies and how they fought for her to get on um get some of the top shows or some of the top magazines. You know people like azad and elia um versace and you know you feel like saying, do you think naomi campbell was a dei hire? Because you know the way they scorn at that. Yeah, even naomi campbell needed allies, but can you ever deny that? No one can walk like that woman. She didn't take anybody's space. She didn't take a white person's space Definitely not Right. But we'd have no Naomi Campbell without allies.

Speaker 1:

And you're trying to make people recognize that there are so many talented people out there who need, first of all, us to come together and support them. But they also need allies and gatekeepers, whatever their colour may be, to go in you get. Yeah, in you get because you have the talent. People will always give you stats about oh, but people won't like this and people might not like that. Oh, and they complained about the Sainsbury's advert. I don't care if they complained about the Sainsbury's advert. There are Black families who shop in Sainsbury's all day long. They were allowed to shop with Black family at Christmas Exactly, or whatever company it was that did it, and if people complain about that, why, yeah, most people complain about this?

Speaker 1:

What is the problem with it? Like what is the problem with it? And I know that there is a, you know, almost like a white male crisis right now where white men feel like they're about to be made obsolete in some way, and I know it's a feeling I'm not saying it's true and I still look at that with empathy, because who doesn't know how it feels to be ostracized or felt like you're not valued? As a black woman, I 100% understand that feeling. But it's much more about with our next project is kind of acknowledging that together we work, but it's been unbalanced for so long. It's been unbalanced for so long. We get on with feeling what it's like for it to be balanced are you able to share more?

Speaker 2:

is this? Is this for the october project or is it for next year?

Speaker 1:

It's for the October project. Okay, I can share, because we're not talking about the big thing. It's called the Triangle of Unity and the aim of that is the world we imagine will curate events and initiatives that allow people to still learn about what connects us, but also experience equality across the triangle. So we're really trying to redefine and rebalance that triangle so that people across Europe, africa and the Americas get to experience equality and get to see what it would feel like if it was balanced.

Speaker 2:

Interesting People who listen to this podcast after October. How can they still hear about the project? Where can they find more information after?

Speaker 1:

October. How can I still hear about the project? Where can I find more information? So, if you go to theworldreimaginedorg, you can go onto our website. We're also theworldreimagined on Insta and you'll be learning about all our projects that we're doing that. We're very much about progress, achieving it boldly, proudly, proudly, but mostly about unity, and I feel that there's so many divisive things out there. The easiest thing you can do is be negative. The easiest thing you can do is divide. It's really really easy, yeah, so we get on with the harder stuff and we get on with. How do we unify, how do we rebalance and how do we platform great talent across Africa and the Americas, or the heritage of Africans and the heritage of the Americas? How do we highlight these talented people and give them a platform to shine? Yeah, and an equal platform. So it's not a kind of performative thing. It's really about showing what we can do in reality all day long, in my opinion.

Speaker 2:

I can tell you can talk about this for hours and hours because you've been working on this for such a long time and I can see that this has been such a great, beautiful journey of yours to listen to your story and what you've accomplished. And I was about to ask. I like to ask my guests like what, what is the legacy that you want to build? But you already built it and you continue to build it, which is so beautiful, so that is almost irrelevant. Michelle has been Michelle girl.

Speaker 1:

Everybody's pleasure to thank you I will say it's hard to lead, but I'm not saying it's easy. Um, having taken over the helm of the project and pushing it and devising this program, um, you know, I I understand what it's like when you're leading and because you can have three wins and one loss, and really when you go to bed you're thinking of that one thing that didn't come off, and it's really hard. And when, for villa, like you, you set up groups where people can actually talk about stuff like that, it's really good to be able to offload and go. You know, this didn't happen today. Um, for other people to put that into perspective, about things that haven't happened for them, but things that have happened and how things can work out, because there were points where I was losing so much sleep and I can say now I'm not in that space anymore, I'm much more in the space of I'm going to count my wins and I'm going to count my, my, and each, each step forward is a win and you've got to see that too, flavilla.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Each step forward is a win. You might not have accomplished the goal yet, but just in your body, acknowledge it as a win. And then, before you take that next step forward on your journey, that'd be great.

Speaker 2:

Right For everybody. This is Michelle girl telling a story. And again, if they want to stay connected with what you're doing or get involved, the best way is to go to the website. Right, michelle? Yes, theworldreimaginedorg. Theworldreimaginedorg. We'll share the details as well in the description of this podcast For all our listeners. There was some amazing takeaways from this interview. It could have been two hours, but obviously we'll try to keep it in more time Don't bore people.

Speaker 2:

No, honestly, this is such a beautiful conversation. I know that I can't wait. So remember, if you're listening to this before October 2024, make sure you check out theworldweareimaginedcom so you can come and see what's happening in October and if you're listening afterwards, still check it out and get involved, because I'm sure she will have much more amazing things coming up For everybody else. I will see you very, very soon. Bye, everybody. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Rise. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit theblackrisecom to find out more. This is Black Rise, where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising.