Black Rise

How to Build A 9 Figure Global Digital Marketing Brand - The Jellyfish Story with Rob Pierre

• Black Rise • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Picture a global digital marketing giant, now imagine being at the helm of it. That's the thrilling reality of our guest, Rob Pierre, co-founder and former CEO of Jellyfish. We'll have an intimate conversation about his riveting journey from the humble beginnings to the pinnacle of success. Bracing personal loss and confronting professional hurdles, Rob's resilience story will be a beacon of inspiration for many.

This episode is so much more than a corporate story; it's about the fundamental significance of finding a home, a sense of belonging in the most unfamiliar situations. Hear from seasoned retail managers as they share their stories - the significant importance of passion, delegation, adaptability and leveraging individual strengths within a team. We'll hear their take on the delicate balance of the corporate and hustle mindset, and how understanding a company's overall strategy can make all the difference.

As we approach the end of our riveting narrative, Rob enlightens us on the exhilarating journey of launching Jellyfish. He speaks to the challenges of scaling an agency in the digital marketing arena, and the power of strategic partnerships and acquisitions. Hear how collaboration, autonomy, and a united team can be the engine of a business's success. He’ll also offer insights on fostering autonomy and flexibility within a company and when it is prudent to seek investment for further growth. So, fasten your seatbelts and get ready for a journey of wisdom and inspiration!

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Speaker 1:

You could very articulately deliver exactly what you personally were accountable for, and the value and the outcomes and the tangible results.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Black rice podcast. You get a way to inspiring conversation with Black Rem de la Crème of Black talent, who are leaders of seven figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. I'm your host, flavilla Fongang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on his journey. Black rice isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our mission is to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. We strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackricecom to find out more.

Speaker 2:

Today, we welcome Rob Pierre to the Black rice podcast. He is a co-founder and former CEO of Jellyfish Rob, who built digital marketing specialist Jellyfish from scratch into a global company with an annual revenue of $205 million. Before stepping down, he led the company's expansion to over 2,000 employees across 28 global offices, catering to major clients such as Google and Netflix. The acquisition of Jellyfish by the Brandtec Group in June 2023 marked another milestone in Rob's impressive career. Rob champions businesses that positively impact society, recognizing the media as one of the UK's most influential Black leaders. Rob's expertise and insight promise to inspire you. Rob is such a pleasure to have you with me on this Black rice episode. It's been so far an amazing conversation with amazing leaders and I'm really excited to have you. I'm curious to know, in terms of you are bringing, how was it like your family, your brothers and sisters, your parenthood are people also influenced you when you were young?

Speaker 1:

So, yes, I have got a little bit of trauma that comes out in this conversation. But I'll take you back. I was born in the UK and I had a younger brother and an older sister, and so we were born in Woking in Surrey, and then I actually moved back with my whole family to Trinidad when I was four. So my mum met my dad when he was in the Royal Air Force, so he was stationed here in the UK, met my mum, and so we all went back as a family when I was four years old. So my whole childhood was actually in Trinidad. And the trauma I'm talking about is that, unfortunately, when I was 11 years old and my younger brother was nine years old and my older sister was 13 years old, we had a little family holiday down in a beach house in the south of Trinidad and unfortunately my brother drowned. We were all in the water and, yeah, we were just jumping waves and then the undercurrent pulled us out and we were all scrambling for our lives and unfortunately my sister and I made it back to shore and my brother didn't, and from that point obviously it was a big strain on the family dynamic. My dad was on the beach with us. And so literally three years later, I found that I was moving back to the UK and my parents were great. They explained that it was for our future education. We were British citizens and so coming into the school system to then go on to university, we were moving over and they said my mum brought us over and said that my dad was going to follow. He was just clearing up some things in Trinidad. But as the months went by, I was kind of looking at the calendar and going. I thought you said dad was coming, yeah, and he never was. So they separated at that point but made sure that they lowered or mitigated the impact that it would have on us and just made sure that the transition was as smooth as possible. And yeah, so my dad stayed in Trinidad and here I was.

Speaker 1:

At 14 years old I came into a St Bede school, a state school here in Surrey and with the strong, thick Trinidad accent, a completely different culture. The music was different, the smells was different, the food was different, the way in which people engaged the vernacular, literally. It was so strange for me and that wondering sort of where home is, because even within a couple of years, when I went back to Trinidad, I started to have some English traits and my vernacular changed and so I was considered a foreigner back in Trinidad. But of course, I was 100% considered a foreigner here in the UK, and that left me in a very confused state. I didn't actually know where home was and it took me a while to understand that.

Speaker 1:

Home is where you set up your family, home is where you feel belonging, home is where you make it and in the end, yeah, it came to the realization that the UK was going to be my home and, yes, I am different in the environment I'm in, but that doesn't mean I don't belong or can't belong. And once I came to that realization, I was able to sort of settle in and, as you can hear right now, of course, my accent. I have lost my accent. I do fall a little bit into it when I'm engaging with family and back in Trinidad, but ultimately my accent has gone. No one would really know that my entire childhood was in Trinidad.

Speaker 2:

No one would know because I've never heard this part about you, but in a way it makes me feel good. I won't explain what I mean by that, because all the great conversations I had on the podcast, they all had fantastic upbringing and I'm listening to this really. Oh, mine was not so much like that and we share something in common where my fathers were left when my mom was, I was still in my mom's child, so I can understand the element of not having that super beautiful upbringing, of parents being there and supporting you and so forth. But you still build that beautiful resilience and I think part of it as well. When I think about your story. There's an element of you don't know why it's happening. Are you somehow? Is it something that you've done? Is it something that you've done? You feel a bit guilty. Is it my fault, and so forth, but it's hard when you're a child and just a teenager. You have to deal with such thing and you're not prepared for it because you cannot control the dynamic between your parents.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's the way they handled it, and my mom sacrificed everything that she could, and so I still had that love in the family and that feeling of protection and support. So I think that's what really got me through it, and now I've ended up with a very philosophical view. I would say I'm a spiritual person. I'm not religious and I don't believe in karma. Like you said, I don't think this is a result of things that I've done.

Speaker 1:

I think that life is random and things happen, and the famous formula that happiness is reality minus expectation. Well, my expectation is that things happen, and that allows me to have the perspective that when things aren't happening, enjoy it, cherish it, understand your privilege when things are going your way or you've had good events in your life, because when bad things happen, I lost my father last year and that has an impact. But it is the circle of life and things happen in life and they're going to happen. So it's how you deal with it. It's not expecting them not to happen, and I think that's made a big difference for me.

Speaker 2:

I love that in process, people say, yes, it's great to hear that, but how did you manage to deal with that element of how you deal with the situation instead of being a victim of it? Because quite often people can find themselves in a victim mode or this is all happening to me, but how do you not let this be a victim, but you really embrace it and say I'm going to deal with it the way I can.

Speaker 1:

I think my mum and dad. So even though dad lived in Trinidad, we still we didn't speak every day or very often, but we certainly didn't have a bad relationship. And I think those two individuals, my parents they always led by example. They would never had a victim mentality. They weren't complainers, they were doers. They worked within their means and what they had.

Speaker 1:

And I think subconsciously I picked up a bit of that. But I don't know, I don't know the exact moment, I don't know what part of my life has led to the philosophy and mindset that I've got. But what I do know is that when I have sessions with people and I've worked with somebody on a when I was doing a talk just in and she basically had a few interviews with me and she described me as a master reframer she just said that no matter what the situation, you will reframe it, or you will try and find a way to put the positive swing on it, or to be optimistic and find a way to come to a solution, to move forward and not to dwell on the impact or, in some cases, the unfairness of the situation that you're in. So I just believe that it may be organically happened. It's a bit of the environment that I was in and maybe it's in my DNA, just to take this positive outlook on life and situations.

Speaker 2:

I love that positive outlook on life. It's so important to be that resilience. So now can we go into. You're back in the UK, right, and you're now in school. So what happens when that's transition from school to education a bit more? Did you go to university? What happened next?

Speaker 1:

I didn't. This is another setback that I had. So I was quite creative. But also I had a bit of left and right brain. So I was quite creative and I did art and just graphics and technical drawing and physics for A-levels. And I didn't really know what to do.

Speaker 1:

So I thought maybe computer animation, graphics, computer studies, computer science. I didn't really know. So I looked around for what courses? And of course I was over here with my mum and she's a single parent and we didn't have a lot of money.

Speaker 1:

So thinking about how I was going to fund my university life, and then I found this course IBM were doing a computer studies degree sponsored, where they pay. I think it was a really decent salary for the three years and you had a guaranteed job at the end. So you did this computer studies degree with a guaranteed job sponsored by IBM. I thought, well, that sounds like exactly the thing that I need. So I did the long, laborious application form. I mean there are tens of thousands of applicants for this, as you can imagine, and luckily I got the opportunity to come and be assessed. So I got through that first stage. I went down to Portsmouth to their headquarters and I did their two day assessment session, which was like men's attest lateral thinking role playing interviews. You were even, I think, assessed whilst you were having dinner, without you interact with everyone, and I went through this two day assessment and you'll be happy to know that I got offered the place.

Speaker 2:

You are doing.

Speaker 1:

Which was fantastic, but of course I didn't read the small print and that was pending your A level results and. I failed physics and they retracted the space.

Speaker 2:

Oh no.

Speaker 1:

Would you believe it. And so, again, I had already told everyone I've turned my life around. You know I'm shouting from the rooftops. I, my mom was so proud, my family it's just like it's was an amazing achievement. And then I had to go back to everyone and say, oh, by the way, I completely failed. No, no, I failed physics. And now they've retracted the space and this wonderful path that I was on has been taken from me, and now I have to dust myself off, get up and start again.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, I took a year out and went to the airport and eventually secured a job at Sunglass Hut and as a just as a sales assistant and, to cut a long story short, seven years later I'd worked my way up through Sunglass Hut. Never, it was meant to be a year out. It didn't turn out to be a year out. I was there for seven years and was the sales and operations director for Europe. So I was basically heading up the finance director, became the MD at one point and then I was basically supporting him as the sales and operations director and pretty much headed up the European stores for Sunglass Hut. And I can tell you a thousand stories.

Speaker 2:

Yes, please, because I wanna know. I think it's beautiful the fact that you didn't get. You know you didn't get what you wanted, and then you know you had to deal with the defeat but say you know that's okay, I'm gonna spend a year or something else, but you still managed to make an entry, maybe the way you wanted to, and you made the way up. So I wanna understand more of that journey to starting from one point and going to the top. How did that go? What did you do?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think that the first thing is that I enjoyed it. I had a passion for it because it was an environment that was, if you've kind of gamified it in your head, there's a lot of cause and effect, there's a lot of metrics that you can measure. So earning your bonus, improving the sales, recruiting the right people, motivating a team to achieve results, started to become a passion of mine, and it was my university degree, because it was the university of retail, and retail is an unbelievable foundation, I think, for any business person, because when you think about it, you've got you're quite a young person and if you've given the responsibility of managing a store, it may be a small 300 square foot location but with maybe 12 to 20 people in it, because in the airport they were very busy but you were responsible for the hiring and the firing, you were responsible for merchandising the store, the inventory, the cashing up, the profit and loss, the shrinkage, reducing shrinkage, the training, the sales, all of the KPIs that come with that. That was all your responsibility. So learning all of those aspects of business in that environment where you're fully accountable was a fantastic foundation for me as a professional moving forward, and what I quickly found is that you can't do it alone and that I think I started to learn my philosophy around delegation versus distributed accountability and giving people the full, not just responsibility for doing something, but the accountability that goes with it, and empowering and making everyone feel and acknowledging that they are the best at one or many things and making sure that the tasks that they are allocated are related to their superpowers. And over time we've defined superpowers as something that you do, that you can rate yourself nine or 10 out of 10 on skills, knowledge, experience, aptitude and passion, and so that could be merchandising, that could be the sales, that could be. I mean, even some people are very organized and love just organizing and cleaning the shop and you just find out what people's strengths are and you distribute all of the accountabilities and you succeed. But also it was observing things around you, learning from other places.

Speaker 1:

The famous story and I've told this before, so apologies anybody listening to this that have heard previous podcasts, but as an example, I was walking past the shoe shop in the departure lounge and the manager. She was taking down all the shoes off the shelves and I was like, oh no, are you shutting down? And she said to me oh no, no, no, we've just had the Lagos flight. So we're taking down all the size sevens and we've got the Japanese flight next, so we're putting up size threes. And I said she said because we don't have time to keep running into the back room to give them a parachute or a single shoe to try. So we're just taking a guess at the demographic that are coming through and we're changing it so that maybe the majority can just try the one on that's on the shelf.

Speaker 1:

I was like wow, wow, changing the store based on the environment changing, because in a departure lounge everyone changes based on the flight. So that was obvious and that's genius. So I literally ran back and, like a military operation, I said to everyone in my store selling sunglasses I said well, let's change the whole front of the store based on the flights coming through, let's remerchandise and make sure that all of the sunglasses that are applicable to that demographic. And so, for example, the Lagos flight went through and we had all the Versace's and the Cartier's and the glasses that had gold and were the styles that were popular in those regions. And then the Italian flight goes through. It was Chloe, giorgio Amani. Then the American flight went through and it was Oakley and Maui, jims and Ray Ban, and we started to do this and once you started to allocate people, so, like you were the merchandiser, you look after the flight schedule and work out which flights and which brands go with those flights. And after a while I started coming back to the store and you'd go to the back room and you would see like they had borrowed the magazines from the different countries from WH Smith and they were kind of working out what was the fashion in each of the regions so that they could be informed with their decisions of which glasses.

Speaker 1:

You found that historically, between flights everyone was bored and literally like zombies just cleaning lenses. If you're lucky, they would do that because they weren't incentivised, but by changing the store between flights, almost like a pit stop in Formula One, they had a very short period of time and everybody just jumped into action and it was exciting and you saw the benefits and the outcomes that came from your actions and you could see the sales go up. So we started to see lots more people across the lease line because the front of the store attracted them and then we were able to engage with the right offerings and the right choice of sunglasses. And yeah, we just went from strength to strength and, of course, we started running out of sunglasses because we were selling more than we were able to store.

Speaker 1:

And again you would think to yourself oh well, there's nothing you can do. We're a 300 square foot store. There's only so much storage. But there is something you can do, because we had like two of each style of sunglasses so you could easily run out of a style. But then we thought, okay, well, what if everybody bought the same style? What if we were all the best sellers and the ones we wanted to sell at eye level and put the others to give the perception of choice? All the posters were certain styles, and then we made sure that we only had one of each of the other styles, but we had 10 of the ones we were selling and therefore we were able to continuously sell, not run out of inventory.

Speaker 1:

The store still looked well-merchandised and then so not only did we have more people across the lease line, but we were able to sell more with limited space, and they're just a couple of examples of things that we were doing that exponentially had a dramatic impact on the sales and what actually happened which kickstarted my career is that I was managing the North Terminal Departure Lounge Store and it didn't really feature in the top turnover stores in the world and we took that store to be the number one revenue store in the entire world out of 2,200 stores. And then I was flown over to Miami to the headquarters to try and find out what exactly were we doing in this store and what was the change that they and the sudden increase in revenue that they saw trending in the store. And I was able to tell my story and obviously that gave me the exposure that kickstarted my career.

Speaker 2:

Wow, what a story. This is amazing Because I think one thing that you explained is that you probably didn't go to university, but you were street smart. I mean, in the sense of what I mean by that is that it was about getting on the ground, really understanding people, understanding the power of personalization, understanding people I think most of the time, you know, you look at a product and don't understand why people buy a product. And that understanding, but also bringing a team together, it's not when you're building something that is huge, it's not all on you. If you can incentivize, if you can bring people together, especially if you're doing something that is boring, that is something so exciting. And the fact that you were number one around the world, this is amazing. I think this is what you've done. Which I love is that you were very street smart and quickly realizing the importance of adaptability, but also psychology.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, and that's gone through because the sales training and what we did. Another little example is that we used to try and narrow down. We asked lots of questions and try and narrow it down to the right pair of sunglasses that somebody would love. But then what we learned very quickly is that if you narrow it down to one pair of sunglasses, then the choice is yes or no. So we always used to bring it down to two. We never narrowed it down to one pair of glasses, we narrowed it down to two. And then you asked a question which do you prefer?

Speaker 2:

Mm.

Speaker 1:

And then you do the assented clothes oh, you prefer this one. Okay, shall I wrap it up? And would you like any cleaner to go with it? And what we found is that now, whether it's marketing, even on an e-commerce website, and just in life when you're negotiating, just the concept of saying to somebody which one of these two do you prefer, I kind of use that throughout life now, and these are all lessons and ways we achieve success, all the way back to when I was a young 20-year-old in a retail environment. And yeah, so there's lots and lots of lessons I've learned along the way by having my retail background.

Speaker 2:

In your retail background and that fantastic story. What are some of the maybe mistakes that you've made that were actually great lessons? Maybe you talk about team and sales and psychology and the same people. What do you think that you learned? Or made mistakes really fast and then learned to reapply quickly?

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's a hard one Because and somebody's asked me you know what, what failures or what mistakes and I kind of everything feels so, so organic that I don't know when I've made a mistake, because if you, if you test, analyze, refine, if you look at what you've done and then adapt it on an ongoing, organic basis, you've never actually failed. It's like things don't work in the process and then you adapt until it works, and so I can't even dwell on things I would say were big mistakes. I think one of the experiences I will always remember is that before we came up with the concept of let's change the inventory and just buy deep on the best sellers and put those at eye level and on those sort of things, I used to run out of sunglasses and we didn't get the deliveries quick enough and I had an area manager visiting the store and I had lots of gaps all over the store to make a point and of course, customers were coming in and it looked like we were shutting down because there were loads of gaps in the shelves. And you know you should be facing up and making sure that the store looks full at all points and the area and and the area manager sort of berated me and said you know, to make a point to me when I come, but then the customers have to come in and see this empty store.

Speaker 1:

That's not what we're looking for. You must think about the customer first and the the perception of the environment, etc. You don't want to do that to make a point to me, and that's what led me to strive to think about a solution. So instead of, you know, throwing my toys at the pram and saying that we've only got a small space and I'm not having my deliveries regularly enough, I found a way around it. So I think all I would say is that I learned very quickly to come up with solutions, and you know the values at Jellyfish.

Speaker 2:

One of them, one of our four core values, was always be the solution yeah, exactly, and I think so that mindset to take you so much, so much further, because you were always even in the most complex situation or maybe something that don't turn out as you wanted, you always look for a solution. And I think you I love your point, your thinking is, your thing is that is always about testing and finding, because people think that they're gonna learn something is gonna work first time, or didn't work. So he felt so no, wait a minute, it didn't work okay. So what do I need to change? How can I refine it until it works? And that my sense is super powerful in achieving growth and so much more. So we're in the retail space, you doing really well. You have brought you to the head office to talk about your fantastic results. What happens next?

Speaker 1:

so I then, yeah, I go to area manager, to regional manager, to sales and operation director for Europe, and I'm on that path, and then the president of sunglass hut moves to a company called Sanity. So Brazen is a Australian holding company and they had a music chain called Sanity and they bought our price here in Europe and the president of sunglass hut was friends with the owner of Brazen and, and so he then asked me would you come? I'm now the global president of Sanity would you come and be the MD for Sanity in Europe? And I thought, well, I'm very flattered and obviously I'm not a profit, because I went into the music retail industry knowing that that's not knowing that that was going to obviously come to an end with streaming and and the different technologies, but anyway. So I said okay, very flattered, and I went into that. However, they sent over their chief operating officer from Australia and I just didn't have the autonomy to do the things that I wanted to do. It was almost like he was the franchise owner and there were all of these strict rules that you had to adhere to, which didn't allow me the autonomy and the flexibility to do the things I'm used to.

Speaker 1:

So that only lasted six months and then I ended up working for an entrepreneur down in Southampton and he had the one of the top three motorcycle accessory distributors and manufacturers and mobile phone accessories and distributors and he had a chain of mobile accessory stores which were going through a real troublesome time and so I was employed to come in and help with with mainly the retail chain. But then I ended up supporting him on all of his businesses and that's when I learned the cutting edge. So the company called by kit and the chain of mobile accessories sort of called mobile style, and then he had a mobile phone accessory distribution business as well and he admitted you know he's a he's a market trader at heart. He was a multimillionaire market trader but he always had the edgy way of doing things, so I'd learnt the corporate way. Then I earned the real hustle entrepreneur mindset and that gave me the full balance to, as a professional, to take forward, and so can I see what is the difference.

Speaker 2:

What is the difference between that edgy way and that corporate? What do you think? What different? The two? What different, yes, what's the difference?

Speaker 1:

I think the corporate way is often around mitigating risk and trying to achieve consistency, so there's lots of rules and parameters to work with. Where they're setting the procedures from a central location, I think the hustle way is that it's much more adaptable and possibly less of a mitigating risk mindset, which then leads you to do things that are just more edgy and the mindset is different. And I'm gonna give you a very quick example, which was the biggest lesson very quickly. So in these mobile phone stores they were selling the phone covers for the Nokia. This so this is so shows how far back it goes. And these phone covers he was literally buying for like 30 cents. He was manufacturing them in China for 30 cents and they were being sold in the store for like 1295 pounds well so you can imagine the margins were insane.

Speaker 1:

But so, but my mindset, coming from sunglass heart and all of my history, I was working with things that were very expensive and an inventory, control and managing theft was always really high in my agenda. So I put lots of processes and procedures to make sure that either the staff or the customers weren't stealing the glasses and that we had regular inventory control. And Martin, the owner of the company, came to, came on a tour with me and we went into the stores and I puffed my chest out and I proudly told him about all of these processes we put in place to manage the inventory and he looked at me like I was crazy. Why? Why are you looking at me like that? And he laughed and he goes Rob, all that energy, if you would put it into marketing and selling, I don't care if they steal it, because if they stole it it's 30 cents, he told me. Even if the staff stole it, he doesn't care, because if they sold it in the pub then you know I don't have to pay them more. It's 30 cents.

Speaker 1:

Now I don't agree with this. By the way, can I just say I don't condone this mindset, but I was just showing the way in which he thought was very different to a corporate. He was saying put all your energy into selling more, I don't mind if I sell one at 1295. That obviously allows me to lose about 40 because you just sold one extra. And then I just thought, oh wow, so it really just gave me a different perspective that I, you don't just like cookie cutter or you don't just have a blueprint framework for every environment. You do have to consider one, either what your investors or your, what is the actual overall strategy of the company. So you know you understand exactly what they're trying to achieve, because then that will change your approach and the processes and the way in which you do business. And that was another awakening for me.

Speaker 2:

It's a great lesson for you. Why are you trying to get over the system for something that costs 30p? And again you say you have to understand the business. You have to understand you have a size of the business industry. You know what they're trying to achieve and how it runs is true, and you know there's not one solution for everything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and the lesson, just to be clear, is not that you want people around you that are feeling and that you can do that, but I think hopefully the story tells you in one analogy or one example. It shows you the difference between a corporate environment and somebody who's a hustler.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, love it, love it. So you've now moved away from the corporate mindset and you find yourself in a much more agey business. Yeah, corporate entrepreneurship is very different. Obviously, entrepreneurship sometimes, you know, quite often becomes corporate environment. But yeah, so you went the other way around, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think you can find both. So that sort of led me to Jellyfish. So whilst I'm working for Martin, I'm going on stag do's and weddings and I start bumping into a guy who's who wasn't at the time in my core group of friends but in the peripheral group of friends. But as you start going on these stag do's and weddings, you're spending a concentrated time on weekends away and he owned an IT consultancy in Rygate and he saw the potential in digital marketing this is right nearly around the birth of Google, you know, back in 2005. And yeah, he saw all the potential and we were discussing and by then, you know, I was being really well looked after because I was managing all of Martin's businesses and I was driving a Porsche and wearing nice clothes and going on weekend breaks and, you know, just really living the dream as a young, sort of 30 year old. And he saw that and he knew I was managing large businesses with large teams etc. And he said to me you know I can see this opportunity, come join me and I would like to explore digital marketing and paid search and those type of activities.

Speaker 1:

And so, after a few conversations, one of these stag do's it just happened to be both of us travelling up on the train. We kept having the conversation and I eventually said okay, yeah, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to come and join you and together we will sort of consolidate your IT consultancy. So get rid of all of the IT support and network support contracts Hold on to about six people, I think it was at the time and rebrand and become a digital marketing company, because, of course, in my time, a big part of my responsibility was the sales and marketing and the operations that go with it, and so that's what I did. So in 2005, I just took the leap and I mean that was an 18 months of serious change for me, because I got married, moved house, started jellyfish with Paul and had rear like my daughter all within an 18 month period. Eight in the world. That was an amazing period of change for me.

Speaker 2:

Change. I'm very curious about what happens next, and I think that the way you, the way I would love you to tell you your story, is also things that you want to prepare for, but I'm sure you're going to tell us what happened next now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so jellyfish, wow. I mean, we ended up with the philosophy that we needed to be the best and we couldn't really get a first mover advantage. So the best. And how do you become the best? Well, you make yourself as niche as you have to to become the best. So we literally were the number one PPC, so Paid Search Marketing Company on a performance model in the publishing sector.

Speaker 1:

Because the reason why we chose the publishing sector is Paul had already had a couple of contracts where he was working for like Witch and I think it was Money Week at the time so he was doing some IT work and building microsites for them, and we started asking them how could we support them with marketing? How were they going to bring people to their microsites? Could we put a proposal for digital marketing? And Paul had already started those conversations and so we said, okay and this was sort of where my input came in is that let's do it on a performance model, let's only concentrate on one vertical and let's make sure that we're this niche company. And so, yeah, so we said we are the number one Paid Search agency on a performance basis in the publishing sector in Rygate, which is true, we were the number one and then over time we kind of dropped off Rygate and then we dropped off the publishing sector, then we dropped off the performance model and we were able to say we were the number one Paid Search agency in the UK. And then we then diversified and introduced other services and then we just continued until we had established ourselves as the best. We didn't then diversify and expand, and then we built these building blocks of success. We built building blocks of achievements and outcomes and then we just continued to grow and grow, and we did that through lots of philosophies, and I look back and thinking our partnership was a really important thing. I was speaking to a couple of founders last night actually, and I gave them a bit of advice and I said one of the things that we did is that we had to continuously remind ourselves that it's both of us against a challenge or it's both of us that's going to exploit an opportunity, not against each other.

Speaker 1:

Because one of the things that ends up happening is when you have a difference of opinion, what ends up easily happening is that you then want to be right and so you have a different of opinion and then you realize that you're no longer. Both against the problem, you're both against each other. And then the debate goes into the realms of how do I be right at the end of the day, instead of coming to the right solution. And then we had these sort of compromise coins that we called it. So if we had a difference of opinion, we had to decide who cares most and who is most qualified by experience or knowledge to make that call.

Speaker 1:

And if we don't agree on something, you have to then say to the other okay, I'm going to take a compromise point and we're going to do it your way, but I've got next time or maybe I'll use one of these compromise points at a later date. But that was the easy bit when we agreed that that was great. And we continuously thought okay, both of us against the problem, let's decide who cares most about the direction of travel. I'm going to take a compromise point, we'll do it your way. That was the easy bit. The hard bit was that you can never say I told you so If it doesn't work out the way you've got to. When you take that compromise point, you've got to say okay, I'm right behind it, I'm going to do everything we're both in this together in that direction of travel and if it doesn't work out, I took my compromise point.

Speaker 1:

I'm not allowed to say I told you so and just having these type of mindset and philosophies right at an early stage allowed us to get through those challenges, to be a true team and to build the business. Even though we had very strong minds and very different opinions, everybody saw it as one. You can even give this advice to parents, can't you? Because children always want to try and play one off the other. But you've really got to make sure that you're aligned as much as possible and if there's any crack and your team will see it if there's any crack, then the water goes in and you don't notice, but until the really big freeze and then it bursts open. And those pressurized situations are exactly when you spot the cracks in a relationship or a team. And we really made a lot of effort to make sure there were none of these cracks so that when we did get under pressurized situation, we could all work in unison.

Speaker 2:

And it's important which is very important when you have a co-founder to make sure that you have each other's back, because if it doesn't show, it will affect the entire team dynamic. And you talk about the analogy about parents. Some kids are very clever. They will use oh okay, if I can't get from dad, let me go and ask for mom, and what's the weather? So you want to make sure that you're always a unity as we continue this engaging conversation. Remember that Black Rise is more than just a podcast where dynamic platform where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with black professionals, entrepreneurs and black owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where black excellence thrives globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five star review on iTunes. So how did you take to be the number one in the UK?

Speaker 1:

It was all very complex operations but because you were only paid on results, it meant that we kept sharpening the axe and we kept getting better and better. So that's what made a huge difference. But it was a few years and we ended up. I think we got to about 80 people, I would say in the UK, we started to expand in different regions. But, yeah, I would say 2010 is around the time.

Speaker 2:

And it's probably the right amount of time in text, we will say, okay, well, people want to result. And the reason why I wanted to ask you this question because I think it's important people to understand that there's no overnight success. It's a lot of work and also leading into 80 people, because I'm doing this podcast, because I also want to see more black agency leaders in this space, and I think that's just an agency in general. They're not necessarily very big and you made it to 80 people, so I'm curious as well to know in terms of what advice can you give to people who are trying to scale the agency. What are the things that you've done to really do it really well? Because you also had people not just in the UK at some point, but pretty much around the world.

Speaker 1:

So absolutely yeah, no, we got to 2,200 globally and 38 global offices, and so the ongoing expansion and most of it. We organically got to 800 people with like 80 or 90 million in turnover without any investment. So we were able to build that in a sustained way before we even got our first external investment. One of the things that I would give advice to is collaborations. I think the secret to our success was finding, as an example, treating Google like our best customer and best client. And what do you do with your best client? Well, you work out strategically what's important to them, what are their goals and objectives, and you align with that. You find out who are the key stakeholders and the decision makers in that organization. You find out what certifications and how you can best align with their needs. You find out which regions are strategically important to them and where they're underserved. And we did all of those things for our partners, not just our clients. And by doing that with Google, it became popular within Google to recommend Jellyfish, because we were the best in class and we made them know we were the best in class and we did everything that was important to Google. And so internally, Google didn't recommend anyone, but Googlers did. It was natural.

Speaker 1:

There's human beings and relationships and when brands were asking I need to execute this PPC campaign, who would you recommend?

Speaker 1:

It may have given more than one name, but we were always on the list and I would say to anyone it doesn't have to be even of company as big as Google.

Speaker 1:

What you do is you find established brands and propositions in your sector and you align yourself with them and you become the best supplier to those brands and, by proxy, you will get the trust and the brand equity that comes with those bigger brands. And I would say to the influencer strategy that, as an influencer, the best way to gain followers and to gain exposure is to collaborate. And what you do is you find an influencer with slightly more following than you have. You approach them, you ask to do a collaborate on some content, and then both parties get exposure to each other's following, and then that's how you grow it. So I would say don't try to spend money building your brand. Leverage other brands by being a great partner. Get them to recommend you or to have you on their websites or to create content collaboratively and go from there. I would say that was our success we ended up being global partners for Meta, for Amazon, for Google, and we had Snap and Pinterest, and it became very, very clear that that was the best way to success.

Speaker 2:

I love that and it makes sense. You know it's quicker. People don't have time, especially when there are so many companies who offer digital marketing. Who do you choose? You're going to go with who you trust and who can recommend you the best individual. And if you care about your partners, they're most likely to also care about you. And I think what you re-emphasize the importance of building strong relationship. People look at individuals. People look at brands as brands, but who are people beyond the brands? And you understand this world, as you say, understanding the stakeholders and collaboration. This is the era of collaboration. Now we're collaborating with technology, which is another level, but success always happens not on its own, it happens as a unity and I love that. And when it comes to people scaling so, 2,200 people, that's a lot of people across the world, and I even add the element of cross-cultural differences and so forth, how do you do it? Where do you start?

Speaker 1:

Wow. You start with the mindset that everyone is the best at one or many things in your organization Human beings, their experiences, their life, their knowledge, the way they think or they are always the best at something. So, understanding that you have a group of people with different superpowers, capabilities, experience, knowledge, et cetera, and working out how you can distribute accountability that they are providing that, the service, the support, the training on the things that they're best at, was the start. Feeling that everything doesn't ladder up to you, breaking down that pyramid hierarchy and ensuring that people you distribute that accountability so everybody feels ownership for the things that they could add most value, regardless of seniority. Because, I mean, the advice I give to anybody, even in jellyfish or outside of jellyfish, is that if you want to advance your career or progress, don't take big initiatives where you have to ask permission and get sign off every step of the way. Get the biggest initiative you can get where you could have full autonomy and accountability. So it may be quite small and the ramifications of failure might be less. So you've mitigated the risk. But ultimately the first thing you need to do is practice agreeing the outcome and taking full accountability and having full autonomy to deliver that initiative. You can have support from others, but you're accountable to deliver it. And once you've done that, what you end up doing is creating a breadcrumb trail of success with tangible outcomes. And each time you achieve the desired outcome, you're growing confidence. Not only do you grow in confidence in yourself, but you start to induce confidence from others. And then you get a bigger task or initiative. And then you keep going until you're working with big strategic initiatives. But you've got this track history of delivering and taking ownership, and then you become a leader and then you know how to get people to support. That's how we do it.

Speaker 1:

We try to give as much autonomy to people in a distributed way, and they all grow in confidence and so many things get done Whilst you're concentrating on your own accountabilities. And then you eradicate a lot of those needless one-to-one conversations where people are reporting into somebody, telling them everything that they're doing and explaining how they're doing it and that, and their direct report gives no feedback, no support. It's just a protocol that I've got a report into you, and so eradicating that creates time. It creates a team of people that understand the dynamic and the formation, and then you allow people to. Like I said earlier, if things don't quite go to plan, they're allowed to learn, test, analyze, refine, adapt, and I think people who have accountability don't dust their hands. They do put that extra effort in getting to the desired outcome.

Speaker 1:

If you have somebody else accountable, you're almost relinquished, isn't it? You're not really responsible for delivering it through to the outcome. Oh sorry, you're responsible but not accountable, and I think that's what breaks things down. The other thing is what that leads to is that everybody has support networks, not bosses. It made us think that, ok, well, we don't need heads of. What we need are steering groups, where you distribute the strategic imperative to a group of people and that then starts to introduce that genuine diversity and inclusion into the leadership, and what that means is that also, everybody is responsible for their own careers and they can basically progress, and somebody doesn't need to be displaced.

Speaker 1:

For you to get to the next stage, all you've got to do is demonstrate tangible outcomes that have added value to the business over and above the role that you're doing now, and you put that into a business case. So we even came up with the system that you looked at, your initiatives. What other desired outcomes, tangible KPIs and metrics to measure whether you're achieving that outcome. And then you put a business case forward saying these are the three initiatives that I had for the accountability. This is the value that it added, I would like a pay rise. Then that goes to the people team in your support network and they anonymize it. Then it goes to a panel every quarter and then it's decided whether it warrants a promotion or a pay increase. And so you've eliminated all the unconscious bias because they don't even know who it is.

Speaker 1:

All focuses on outcomes, not romancing your boss and being politically present in the organization or just doing the right things to be visible and getting the right exposure. All of that is eradicated because all that's being assessed is that validated outcomes and if everybody understands that they start creating their own development plans, they start creating their own objectives and initiatives and that all ladders up to the thematic goal and the primary objectives of the organization, then you find you've got this busy hive of individuals that all know what their accountabilities are, all taking ownership of it, all laddering up to the primary objectives of the organization and people are only. It's a meritocracy where you only get rewarded for actually delivering those tangible outcomes. And that's how we did it and we systemized everything that we did to get continuity so that, basically, we did things in the same way and we looked at our methodology, technology and human resources how do they come together to systemize it? And when it didn't mean that individuals couldn't push the boundaries and test and analyze and refine, like I said, but if they did find more productive ways to do things or better technology to use what they could do, is they then put that into the productized, systemized way that we did it, so that everybody benefited from these innovations and these progressive ways of working?

Speaker 1:

And so the vision was we'd almost end up like an e-commerce website for our products, the way in which we delivered, even though it was like a service industry. We systemized it in a way that you could literally go like Amazon and say, if you're going to buy the PPC service, you could also get the landing page optimization and all. You could also buy the training for your internal team, and it's that's the way in which we worked the business. So it was very methodical, but I had the biggest compliment ever. One of the businesses that we bought, the founder, said do you know what, rob? I've never seen so much rigor and structure and frameworks to create so much autonomy and flexibility. It's just, it's a paradox that you think you're putting a load of structure to create flexibility and autonomy, but that's what we were aiming to do.

Speaker 2:

This is so powerful. You need to write your book, rob, because I'm really I really read this book. It's so interesting. I was like, where did you learn this?

Speaker 2:

But I think it's so important because I think what I see a lot in organization and I feel frustrated sometimes for individuals that know that they can't get to a certain position because somebody's going to be there for the next 20 years. But with this you really empowering for system again, your systemization and processes and so forth, but also having given people the autonomy and the flexibility to decide what the outcome of the career will be, it gives so much people an empowerment and ability to really to succeed and put all the effort. Knowing that I'm going to work, I know exactly that if I do ABC, this is what's going to happen for me. Therefore, I'm more motivated than ever to work and achieve this for myself, but also for the company as a, as a unity, and I think that's what's so beautiful about this. And again, releasing yourself from the necessity, because quite often I see smaller businesses that they become their own burden, because every time people will come to them to ask for the solution or ask them to have permission and so forth.

Speaker 2:

And I read this great book a lot, from Tim Ferriss as well. You know the come over and ask him on my head, but it's great in terms of how you build systems so people are allowed to make decisions within the perimeter of the budget or whatsoever, so they don't have to come with you for having to order a panel whatsoever, and it's so, so powerful and it only only about you to do what you're meant to do to go the business, but also empower them to be like you know. I know that I'm not going to get in trouble for doing this ABC, because the system is protecting me. It's my, it's my, also my my bullet proof against anything that can go, and I'm not going to get fired for being what I'm capable of being. This is amazing.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, and what ends up happening is that we started to create you know, you were talking earlier about entrepreneurialism within a corporate environment. We started to create that because we got to. I had a business leader dinner the other day and we're talking about some of these methodologies and somebody said well, you know, it's not that easy in a corporate world. And I asked a question when are you corporate? How, what? What is the definition for becoming corporate? Is 2,200 people in 38 global offices with hundreds of millions of turnover? Is wet. When? When is it corporate?

Speaker 1:

And we were able to create an environment that felt entrepreneurial, but in what would be deemed as a large corporate business. So, yeah, I think it is possible to do both, and what it created is a as a group of individuals that wanted to be within the jellyfish environment because they could, they, they were it's a meritocracy and they were rewarded, remunerated, fairly for the value exchange. But if they were to leave, every it's every interviewers dream that you could very articulately deliver exactly what you personally were accountable for and the value and the outcomes and the tangible results that your actions created. That's what every interview is trying to get to the bottom of when they interview someone right, and so our environment were forcing them to do that and to own it, and so it was very, very easy. In actual fact, a lot of them could just recite their last business case that they put forward for their promotion, which outlines all of it, and so, yeah, we were really creating some great leaders and professionals along the way.

Speaker 2:

I love it. There's one thing that you say as you grow jellyfish, you also went through business acquisition, which is important and I think the thing about that to grow their business. And I feel that you mentioned as well that you were 800 size business until you went for investment. When was the time to go for investment? And also, when you come to business acquisition, how did you go about it?

Speaker 1:

So the time just presents itself, I would say I think I would advise everybody to. If you take the mindset that you are as niche as possible, you wait to diversify your niche, you become the best and you can organically grow. As long as you can do that, I would advise it. But it gets to the point where the clients are so big and that you're dealing you know the difference between cash flow and profit and what you need to be a sustainable business. I mean when you're dealing with multiples of millions of media on behalf of a brand and that you're kind of the middle person between the big network platforms and that advertiser and all of a sudden the platforms have policies that they will shut down your accounts if you don't pay. And then the advertiser pays one day late. Who's going to bridge that gap of that one day? And sometimes it could be five million in one month. And all of a sudden you've got to have the scale. So the bigger the clients you're working with, what you want to do is just make sure that you're not eliminated from the process because you're not a network agency with the funds to be able to bridge that gap and to provide the financing. And it just became more and more apparent that the bigger we got, that it would be good to have that support and to have the investment and also just mitigating your risk for the sake of everybody that's working within the organization. That's the main reason why it got to the point where the timing was right and we were approached because, of course, strategically we got to a scale and a size and we're working with businesses and had the different international locations and had the different capabilities that strategically were very valuable for an industry by so we started getting approached by brokers and by different organizations and that's how we started the process.

Speaker 1:

And when it came to our acquisitions it was always we really looked for values. We looked for organizations that had complimentary either locations or capabilities and had the appetite to join a brand and become that brand. So we didn't have any earn outs. We didn't have separate brands within Jellyfish. We really did run the one Jellyfish model where, when you came in, all of your team, your products, your organization, your technology, everything is going to get homogenized into the Jellyfish business. And we did all of that upfront. We made that very clear in the due diligence process and we made sure that the founders and everybody knew the minute this deal happened that you will become Jellyfish and there will be certain things we're going to learn from you and we're going to adopt that's yours.

Speaker 1:

So that systemization process that I spoke about, it's not just exclusive to the products and the services that we offer. It would be with the companies as well. If a company would have brought a really great methodology or way of doing things, it was never allowed to be done in silo within that organization, we said, oh, that's great, we're going to adopt it globally. But then that meant they had to sacrifice some things. They were doing that we felt we had either better ways or there was a wider strategic reason we had to do it differently. But they would then have to adopt our global methodology. But what it did is. It meant we had continuity across the board and everybody was completely bought in right from the onset. And then so we brought in, you know, over time, maybe about 12 companies overall, but in each and every case they came in, they brought new capabilities and they bolstered our overall proposition in every case.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and when you buy, when you start to buy I'm saying this for the audience don't buy. Buy. People can bring an additional value to the business you already have, but also helps you serve customers as you grow customer on different contents, which is amazing. Is there anything that you would have done differently, rob?

Speaker 1:

What would I have done differently? I mean, that's an impossible question and I really struggle with sort of retrospectively. I think a lot of it is the when. It's not even the what and the how. Most of the time in our lives when something happens is the most important thing, and it's difficult now in this, when you know so, in this moment in time, to try and get yourself either in the mindset or to think how could I do something differently in a different time? So I really struggle to have regrets or to think that I could have done things differently, because in that parallel universe, who knows what would have happened? And I'm so, I feel so proud and privileged that what we've ended up achieving, that I wouldn't want to go back in time like those movies and change one thing and then everything else changes. I don't think I could even think that I could have done something differently.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, my message is always that everything happens for a reason. If you get what you want, that's great. So when, if you don't get what you want, you're supposed to learn a lesson. And I think if you go with that mindset, you're always winning. You're either winning or rich experiences, or you're winning getting closer to what you want to achieve. Either way, it leads you to where you're meant to be, and I think that's a beautiful way of living life, so you don't feel disappointed of what you don't have or compare yourself to somebody else. And just an easy way to do.

Speaker 1:

That's. What's strange is that I don't necessarily have that belief that it's what it's meant to happen or what's meant to happen, because then it kind of has the mindset that no matter what you do doesn't matter, because you're going to end up where you're meant to be, and I don't necessarily agree. I do think that things are random and that is how you deal with it and you can influence what happens. But there are random events that happen that I don't know whether they were meant to happen and take you on a different path. I just think things happen, and that's just my personal philosophy. I still get the same level of comfort, though, because I just think when those things happen, you adapt and you just move on to the next thing, and or you Just deal with the circumstances in the most positive way you can. I still get comfort in the fact that it's you can still end up in even a better situation. So yeah, I think it's similar in mindset, but I'm slightly different on that one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know we can agree to disagree. It's so far. I love it. I love it. You sold jellyfish why?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think the first, the first investment where Fimalac it was a family house for a billionaire, mark Lidre de Lechérie, I think. When we sold half and then we started acquiring more businesses, so they sort of became the majority shareholder in 2000 and sort of towards the end of 2019, it was already different. So, you know, the board structure was, was different and and to the mindset starts to become you don't just have an organization, you have an organization that have investors, and investors are supporting you and financing you in order to have a liquidity event and to Provide a return on investment to those investors. And then, as you grow, that becomes a A big part of the agenda. And so when we got to the point where we were being approached by the brand brand tech group, it was an opportunity to provide that return on investment. It also was a home. That was another disruptive Holding company that was trying to make waves and, in the same way that we were buying companies that provided More geographic exposure or different capabilities, that's exactly what they wanted jellyfish for and the conversation started and it was kind of an organic thing. You know, this is a. This is a big organization and all you're ever trying to do is make sure it's sustainable and it has the right backing and it's got the infrastructure that can and compete in the arena that you find yourselves. And we just kept growing and getting bigger, bigger clients, bigger requirements, and it just seemed a natural progression for the organization. And so it was like a year of due diligence and lots of conversations and it's we had to find a way in which you could get the leadership of jellyfish, firmalak, our investors and brand tech to all agree on how we would move forward and the structure of the deal, etc. And and and. We got there.

Speaker 1:

And so I would say that for me now and the analogy I used on my LinkedIn post is I feel like just the boosters on the on the rocket ship, you know, or the shuttle, they you get, you get it to a certain stage and you're the driving force behind that and you set all the right Momentum and trajectory, but then the boosters drop off, that's not to say the shuttle doesn't then go on into orbit and achieve Great things. You know that that's what I'm hoping for jellyfish and within the brand tech group to happen. What I'm going to do now is I would love to have a wider societal Impact. I would love to help businesses who have gained some traction to scale. So I think what I wouldn't even describe myself as an entrepreneur, because it's not about starting lots of businesses and then handing it over to an operator I think that getting jellyfish organically to where we got it and then growing it and and bringing in or integrating all of these acquisitions and to have the brand that was the biggest Independent agency sale in the UK.

Speaker 1:

I think that brings some knowledge and experience and a passion for doing that that I think I'd like to share with other businesses, and so I think investment, growth and scaling is going to be Very high on the agenda for me, moving forward, and also a couple of projects that are having, again, some Social and societal impact. So, like my inside out Project, which is a clothing brand for ex-offenders, we're growing that business. And also, of course, your esteemed guests, eric Collins, I'm a founding member of the Impact X fund, so trying to get more involved with supporting underrepresented groups with funding and then maybe helping them with some of these frameworks for how they can grow and scale their businesses is is another direction that I'm looking at as well. So, yeah, look, lots of, lots of opportunities looking forward for me now.

Speaker 2:

I'm so excited for you, rob. I think you know your journey is a testament of ability to just be be resilient, adaptable and and and and solution minded and and understanding that part of that journey comes with highs and lows, and it's appreciated all of these things to always keep moving forward, and you've done that so so well. I'm waiting for you to put that family to paper so we can all share it, because I think that will help. You know, any business will probably have either issues in you know, team management or ability to help people feel Empowered having empowerment is a big thing for me, and so forth. But you've done such a great work so I'm excited.

Speaker 2:

I know that whatever you you decide to do will be another great success, because you got the fundamentals really right sales, marketing, people and all of this part. You know, whatever business we create is always about people and when we understand people we can take anything fair, very, very far. Um, I was about to ask a question about vision. We kind of I want to ask you about what is the vision of the future for you, but you kind of give it to me already.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, the vision for me is to, um, to start to get to the root Cause for why we're in the situation we're in and to jet to basically have organizations that baked in, systemically baked in, that we will see Equity in the workplace, a meritocracy, and that we can start to have those wonderful, vibrant, inclusive and diverse teams driving businesses forward in the future. And I think that is definitely my vision to do that, to get to the root cause and to Maybe, in in a few years time, start to see more representation in leadership Through these types of methodology.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and you know, without that, you share your story. You're making this, you're making this reality even more, this vision even more of a reality. We will make it happen. It will happen. Thank you so much for being on the black rice podcast has been such a delight to have you. Before there will be a short conversation, but we like to each other, as it was fulfilling, and I know people listen to this episode right now. Please listen to it once, twice, three times and take notes, because some really great, great takeaway and you can learn from somebody who's built Some successful, not only just for himself, but all the successful businesses. And, yeah, enjoy everybody else. I will see you very soon. Bye, rob.

Speaker 1:

Bye, thank you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for joining us on this episode of black rice. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit the black rice outcome to find out more. This is black rice, where excellence and impact convert, redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising. You, you, you.