Black Rise

How to become a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs - Clare Ashley's success story

• Black Rise • Season 1 • Episode 15

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Climbing the corporate ladder in the high-stakes world of finance, Clare Ashley from Goldman Sachs shares her incredible journey, filled with insights that could shape your own path to success. With her feature in "Voices in the Shadow," Clare illuminates the impact of personal narratives on professional growth, highlighting the power of diversity and the importance of Black leadership in business. Her story is not just about breaking barriers but about creating a legacy that redefines what's possible in the corporate world.

From the resilience fostered by single mothers to the strategic moves within the realms of finance and technology, we uncover the multifaceted layers of career advancement. Claire's transition from a history buff to a powerhouse in financial services exemplifies the importance of education and the pivotal role it plays in shaping futures. The conversation navigates through the nuances of relationship building within mammoth entities like Goldman Sachs and the art of co-heading influential networks. Clare's experiences reveal how authentic connections and personal branding are key to unlocking doors to uncharted opportunities.

Wrapping up, we delve into the rich texture of workplace culture, leadership, and the essential nature of innovation at Goldman Sachs. Clare's ascent to Managing Director spotlights the need for excellence and going beyond what's expected. She also emphasises the significance of nurturing one's team for collective success, advocating for one's achievements, and the support of family when aiming for audacious goals. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone eager to climb higher, push boundaries, and champion progress in their career. Join us for an invigorating exploration into the journey of an inspiring leader, and let's rise together in the pursuit of greatness.

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Speaker 1:

It's absolutely vital that we get people coming in with different, diverse perspectives, otherwise we don't learn anything that's happening externally and we don't grow so 100%. It's vital that we help people coming in.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Black rice podcast. You'll get a way to inspiring conversation with Black Rem de la Creme of Black talent, who are leaders of seven figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. I'm your host, flavilla Fongeng, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on this journey. Black rice isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our mission is to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and enterprise. We strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackricecom to find out more.

Speaker 3:

Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Black rice. I hope that you've enjoyed the last conversation, because this is another amazing conversation that we're gonna have on the Black rice podcast. Black rice, as you probably know by now, the most exciting business platform, where you can find the most exciting talent within the Black community, and we are really a few months away from the launch, whether you listen to that now, after the launch or before the launch, I hope that you've enjoyed every moment of that journey and this time, on the Black rice podcast, I am super excited to be joined by Claire Ashley. But, claire Ashley again, you know I have a lot of people on this podcast who are the first of their kind and I'm telling you that because I think it's important to realize as a whether you're from the Black community or you are not that we often have to be trailblazers, not because it was not great for before us, but because it's also important to be in rooms where nobody has been before but also change the narrative, because this new generation needs even more inspiration.

Speaker 3:

So, claire Ashley, let me talk about Claire Ashley in a few, really in a few words. She's a manager director in the compliance division, leading large scale regulatory transformation at Goldman Sachs. Yes, one of the largest organization companies that you know in the finance and the financial space, and she obviously is the first Black woman in the UK to be in this position. So pretty impressive, claire, such a pleasure to have you. How are you?

Speaker 1:

I'm well. Hello Flavilla, thank you so much for having me on Black rice. I am very, very well and super excited to share my story, talk to you. I'm always, as you know, love talking to you, but also just to provide some insight in terms of kind of my career and hopefully inspire others and provide some insight, advice to people who may be thinking about their own careers and future.

Speaker 3:

Yes, you will and I'll say yes, I know that we haven't started the conversation, but I know you will. Just to give people a bit of background in terms of how we know each other. I'm also the founder of Global Tech Advocates Black Women in Tech, and it was actually a good ally of ours, steven Nandi, who introduced us a long time ago. He said, oh, you have to speak. And I told him about the book Voices in the Shadow. He said, oh, you have to speak to Claire. And as soon as I spoke to him he was like, wow, this woman, who is she? She's amazing.

Speaker 3:

I have to feature a new book. Here we are now, and at that point I remember that because you are on the first volume of Voice in the Shadow, but God knows what a beautiful journey you've accomplished since then. So I know that there's a lot of things you put to learn about you, but I feel like when you start from the beginning, which is obviously and I love to start with understanding people's beginning which is a childhood, how you grow up and what was your family environment like, what are people that really influenced you when you were a younger girl?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. Before I go into that, I'm just gonna say, obviously, when we met, I was a Vice President in Engineering and I have to say all kudos to Voices in the Shadow in terms of what it did for me in broadcasting my career, building my career externally, but also internally, like being part of that book, was phenomenal.

Speaker 3:

So for anyone who hasn't read it, please make sure you do read the book, every single volume, because it can really be transformational, claire, I wanna add something to that, because I think sometimes we really undervalue the importance of sharing our stories and for me, I don't want the only thing that we, when we think about black people and our history, is just the negative the slavery and so on and I really wanna rebuild that message and obviously I'm in the business of branding and marketing, so I really understand the importance of doing that. But when you say that you probably I'm curious. Obviously we're probably gonna get to that as well, maybe later, but as before we go into your childhood. But what are the things people who don't expect that happen in the back of that, especially say internally and externally, for me it was for Goldman Sachs, which is a massive organization.

Speaker 1:

The fact that I was part of the book actually meant that I could showcase that internally in the firm and I had my story that was in the book actually published on the GS website. So that went out to like 40,000 people right. As a result of that I had so many inbound. It was unbelievable actually people read their story and it wasn't necessarily made for the Goldman Sachs employees, but people were so inspired by the story and actually I had people reach out from all different walks of life who were just able to kind of resonate with what I'd said, and that could be women, that could be people that lost parents. It was my story is a very unique one and people just really connected to it and with that the power of storytelling for me was really exposed at the highest level.

Speaker 1:

I really used to kind of hide my story because for many years it was something that I had to work through and actually I realized the power of actually sharing the story so internally.

Speaker 1:

It was great.

Speaker 1:

I had a number of different connections reach out, people who wanted to actually help and support me as a result of knowing my story, people who were just inspired, people who just wanted to know me, and the power of storytelling was massive and I think, as a leader, you need to be able to do that, and do that in a way that's authentic and is really about sharing your story. So it was fantastic from that perspective. And then I think, externally, obviously working closely with yourself, the network of phenomenal women that I've met being part of the book, other women who shared their journeys and have been able to connect with me, has been fantastic, and the amount of other connections that I've managed to gain as a result of putting myself out there. You really can't, I guess, underestimate the value of those connections and relationships and, as we know, things can happen, things can change, but those networks are what keep you in these environments, where they can be very tricky, where you never know what might happen year in, year out, and having those connections are just so vitally important.

Speaker 3:

So important, so important that we always say where you have the average of the five people we spend the most time with your network. It's a bit like your village, and it's so important that we cherish this so much, especially in business when we are so used to being the only one. So, coming back to your beginning, so tell us about you, eugenia, as a young girl.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so I was born in London, born and raised. I'm one of three sisters, I'm the middle child, so I am the typical sort of peacekeeper. I have two feisty sisters, one older, one younger, who I have two bits. They are my favorite people in the world outside. My own children and family and my parents are from the Caribbean, so my mom's from Jamaica, my father is from Barbados. They met in the UK and London, married and had three girls and I was definitely a shy child. I was the more insular of the children.

Speaker 1:

Like I said, I was the peacekeeper in the middle and I was definitely somebody who kind of didn't like to create waves, create noise. I was generally intelligent, good at school and I found that I got praise for being good at school so I kind of kept my head down and studied and that was really my beginnings. I definitely wasn't somebody who I felt at the time would be sort of trailblazing at all. I liked being quite quiet and naturally reserved. I think that was further compounded as I grew up because unfortunately I lost my father when I was six and my younger sister was four months, my elder sister was seven and so my mom, you know, was faced the reality of being a widow raising three girls in London with very limited support in terms of her own family here in the UK.

Speaker 1:

So it made it quite challenging growing up, and I think as a very young person, when you go through something like that, your whole sense of the world and safety changes and I think that definitely for me played into kind of that role of staying safe, staying small, just wanting to get my head down and do what I could and control what I could control.

Speaker 1:

Right, the things that happen outside of you can't control. But for me I was just focused on what can I control my books, my learning and all of that. But I was very lucky in the sense that and I know that sounds very strange I had a great broader family. My dad's family, who lived in the UK, were very supportive, really instilled the value of, even though you've gone through this right, making sure that you work hard, that you study, that you try and give yourself a different outcome. Even though you've been dealt a very tragic card, what can you do and how can you build yourself up to make sure that your future is brighter. So I had really strong role models in my grandmother from Barbados and also from my mother.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's hard because when that happens for a parent, they feel like they have to take both roles. I mean, I'm not talking for an experienced, because I have no idea where they can go through as well. But when you're such a young child I'm also a middle child, by the way, but on the opposite of you, because I am very loud yeah, I'm definitely ambivert as much as quiet, but definitely loud as well, because it can be quite difficult for a child, especially with this. And again, something I love, the fact that you said, that you focus on what you can control. There's no point in worrying about all the other things that are out of your control, and that's such a great way to approach it.

Speaker 3:

And again, reinforcing the importance of a support system, a family system, even if the father is not there, who are the person who can play a role of the father figure our group as well not with our father, who is still alive, but definitely not present for different reasons. So my mom had to do those two roles and again, I don't know for you, but I think it built me into being very independent, in the sense that she wanted us, and she told me that as well. It's like your first husband is your education. She didn't have. She got pregnant really young, when she was still a teen and so on. So she wanted to measure that we don't make the mistake that she did and put this as our forefront, that your future is safe if you really focus on your education. So I don't know if that's what influenced you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%. I think, like you said right, my mom came over, didn't go to university, but really wanted to make sure that we had the opportunity to and going through what she went through, I think she was just very, very clear that actually there's probably only so much that she can do as a mother. Right, she's not gone to uni, she's not grown up herself in the UK, but she wanted to give us all the opportunities to just excel in this environment, and so there was a lot of focus on making sure you do well at school, a lot of focus on staying close as a family and just trying to excel. Definitely, laziness was not an option, and I know that she definitely felt that having a good career, having a good education, was what was going to be a differentiator for us.

Speaker 3:

Going forward. That's good. So what did you study then?

Speaker 1:

So I actually studied history. Everybody always raises their eyebrows like what History? And you worked in engineering for like 20 years in the financial services and and I studied history Mainly because it was something that I really enjoyed and I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do. So, again, coming from the background that I came from, I didn't have anyone who had been to university. He was very close to me, so I didn't have anyone who could really talk about, like what does a career path look like? I Knew I was good at history. I knew I was good at Spanish, so I kind of just decided to continue to study those things because, no matter what, I'm gonna do a good job of those things, because I enjoy it.

Speaker 1:

At the time when I took the degree, I really actually enjoyed doing the history Subject because it was focused on black history, focused on American history, focused on African history, and for me, I've always been very intrigued about like where I come from and how I've got here and where you know how we, as the people, have gotten to where we are In in the places that we live in. So that was a real interest for me. I think when I got to the point of graduating I realized I didn't want to stay doing history, mainly because I didn't want to go into academia. I didn't want to go into government or politics or policy and I definitely didn't want to be a teacher. So I was able to stumble across a Company that that took you on.

Speaker 3:

As long as you had a good degree from a good university, they would train you up in it like service management for like six months going from history to it is Different environment and most you know against me like if imagine you're like most Woman would not use girls, that we say at this age you still you know a young woman would not choose that. What was the interest? I didn't manage to convince you.

Speaker 1:

I mean I guess there were. There were two things. Right, I come from a. I definitely came from a what you would call a social mobility background. So my mom was a single parent for many years.

Speaker 1:

We lived, you know, in an estate in West London, in Westminster, and I knew that I Wanted to do something that would help me get out of that situation in that environment. And I took a part-time job during university at Lloyd's Bank. So I was a retail cashier and I was based in Cheepside in the city and I just remember the people coming in at lunch times or on Friday to withdraw what I thought were obscene amounts and they were obscene amounts of money just to go out partying and just to go. And you know, they were quite flash with it and I was just like, wow, okay, looks like people that are doing. And I'd ask them, what do they do?

Speaker 1:

And some of them would tell me and you know, for me it was like okay, so financial services and technology clearly are places to be. So I didn't need much convincing. To be honest, it was more just IT, gonna train me in IT For six months and then I get to start working in an IT role, like I'm sold, so that's essentially how I got into it, and I also heard you know, obviously Technology is the future. Everybody was talking about technology or IT and it just felt like I'd be crazy not to take this opportunity.

Speaker 3:

Wow so it's interesting how you like your first Influencing your first career was a well, wait a minute, I need to to find a better future for myself and therefore, what is a line I like that? You're also curious because most people say, okay, well, you seem to be withdrawing like 500 pounds, thousand pounds, for a night out. God knows. I'm making things up right now because I don't know, christie, such a powerful feeling. You put some time and the value of asking the right question Not just asking questions, but the right questions. So you definitely ask the right question and after that make the right decision, because I led you to more. What happened to that after that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so after I I started my career in IT, I was working on IT help desk, basically answering the telephone, being the person that you call when you know my. I can't log in, my password isn't working, I can't open outlook and I did that for a while. Moved up to team leadership, did a bit of sort of first line of Severity one issue so like if a system went down, I started to look after those type of things and then I realized Whilst that was good and I learned and I got a good foundation. You know I trained, I'd learned About kind of desktop support IT.

Speaker 1:

Actually, I really was more interested in the why, and the historian of me in me was Curious as to like why do we use these systems? Why is it so important to the business? Why do we? Why is it an issue if this goes down? And you know why? Why is everyone screaming right if this application is working?

Speaker 1:

And so I wanted to move more into what I called more of the, I guess, delivery side, where you're a project manager or Business analyst and you're actually working with your business and your clients to understand what did it they need from the technology solutions and then work to deliver that solution and that was also a much nicer outcome in terms of your relationship with clients, because I felt like when you're on the service side, you only get called when technology goes wrong, right, and there's not a call to say, hey, my systems all worked well today. Thank you very much. No, that never happens. It's always the other way. So I wanted to actually partner with clients, partner with my business, and develop solutions alongside them and then have a better understanding, and I felt it just would make me a better Technologist if I really understood the business that I was serving. So I moved into business analysis and and project management and that's nice like an intercom for me.

Speaker 3:

I just want to stand. Your transition seems so easy, but most people say, oh my gosh, it's not that easy. So how did you make those transition? And how do you also convince people or Probably the decision managers decide if they are allowed to do that. But how did you do it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, great question. I think so in my early career. To be honest, my easiest way to do that was to change job, and I'm not saying everybody should do that, but it's like actually move Company, to go and work in a different role. Sometimes it is. It is difficult if you feel like you've been pigeonholed into a certain area and there's no room for space. I think now and and what I did later actually was build the relationships with people In the existing company, and that was one of the things I did at JP Morgan. So when I joined there, I joined to do one role.

Speaker 1:

It was very clear to me after a very short period that I no longer wanted to do that role.

Speaker 1:

I know really wanted to do business analysis and project management, and that was a negotiation with my manager, right, and at that point I had the conversation with her to say, look, this is really where I want to go. But I appreciate I was brought in to do a function and we had a negotiation and then she agreed like, okay, you know, for the next Year to six months we need to do this thing that we brought you in to do. If you're willing to do that, do a great job. With that, I'm more than happy to support you moving into the next role, and so there was a period where I had to do that role, but it was fine because actually I knew at the end of that I was going to be able to get not only the training that I need in business analysis and project management, but also to do the career that I'm really interested in. So it was about, like you know, navigating that within the existing world and the existing role to see if there was another opportunity.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I think what you just is so important that you have emphasized the importance of managing up. Lot of people wait to be given opportunities to them, to to them, and I think the honor that I made that mistake is when I was employed, where you wait for someone saying, okay, you, brilliant, let me give you that next opportunity where it's up to you as well to figure. First of all, the curiosity that you've built from having a background in and a degree in history help you shape the next role that you wanted to take. But when you have clarity about that, this was also being able to communicate that with your manager because, as you say yourself, sometimes it's harder to just jump from one company to another. It doesn't look good as well on your CV if you do that all the time with that people. I know that sometimes, when I look at it, says that this person seems to be changing every every six months. That makes me worry and it doesn't look good in the eye of an employer.

Speaker 3:

But if you're able to have this conversation, I think sometimes, if you have a right manager and having this conversation up front, say, hey, I'm getting to the problem Saturated, I'm not interested, I want to go into that and then so they can help you, they can really help you get there, and that's such a spare for strategy to really achieve, to what you want, but again re-enphasizing, to the element of being curious and knowing what I'm most exciting, what I want to do next, because I think this is the danger as well. With comfort you can stay. I've seen boosted for 20 years. I mean, it's nothing wrong. If you really like it, then stay in. But if you want to be able to, to have a fulfilling career and you want to and In certain amount of money, you have to be able to continuously challenge. Obviously, challenge yourself, but evolve with your career, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%, and that has been one of the biggest underlining, I'd say, characteristics of my career.

Speaker 1:

It's just been that willingness to learn, willingness to be curious, willingness to almost start again right and be somebody who is continually developing, but also the willingness to do the work and make sure that I'm able to pivot when I want to pivot and can pivot because I've got the relationships and I've already built up the credibility that I need in order to make those moves and to have those conversations.

Speaker 1:

I think it's so important that, whatever you're doing and to your point, some people like to do the same role and want to do that for a long time but whatever you're doing, be continually questioning and challenging yourself Like what is it? It may be the same team, but what is it? I want to learn this year? What specific part of this business that I really don't know? Am I willing to spend a bit of time to get to know? What is this specific process that I really don't like, but actually I probably do need to know it because it will make me all around more holistically, a better manager, leader, employee, and be willing to invest that time in developing and growing your skills, because I think that's so key.

Speaker 3:

Yes, do you remember? I mentioned at the beginning that we know each other because Steven Nandi has been obviously an advocate of you. He's the one who puts you in front of me. So I would love to know as well, in terms of how you've done in terms of building relationships with allies and most of the background, to be the one who will say Claire, I guess, from the foundation point, you have to be good at what you do. And I would say to people like this doesn't happen. If you're not good at what you do, you won't be going to. I mean, it's a little bit lucky out there who can just have a good at building relationship, but yes, so how did you do it?

Speaker 1:

Again, a great question. So, yeah, absolutely being good at what you do is important, and in the role that I have played, I'm usually working on something that is very high profile, high risk, strategic, so there are very senior people that have eyes on the stuff that I'm working on. So I need to be good at my job in order to have any kind of sway with that kind of audience. At the partner level, for example. I think the other thing has been around building your network and having genuine connections, and so when I think about that from an internal perspective, I think it's about having content based relationships and networks as much as possible. So, for example, I do have a lot of work in the diversity and inclusion space and I co-headed the Black Engineers Network for a number of years. I now co-head the Firmware Black Network and, as a result of doing a lot of work there, I was able to spend time with very senior leadership, and once you have the floor with these very senior people, you need to find a way that you can be useful to them but also showcase all of the brilliant stuff that you are doing, and the best way I've found to do that was actually again sharing your story.

Speaker 1:

I remember having a conversation with a very senior female partner many years ago, just talking about the fact that I was doing some mentoring work at a church and I talked to her about and then she asked, oh, what church was that?

Speaker 1:

And I kind of was like, oh no, I'm going to have to tell her I go to this very Pentecostal, very Caribbean church and she won't get it. She won't get it at all. And actually when I explained it to her she completely understood, because she went to a Pentecostal church in the east of London and so she had a pastor and she would go to church and not know what time church was going to really start or finish. And she completely understood the culture from where I was coming from and I 100% had no idea that we would have that level of connection. But I think just being able to talk and share a little bit about yourself allows you to then be able to connect with people that you didn't think you would connect with, and that was so important because then we had this natural affinity, so opportunities came up. She knew who I was, she knew I could do a good job also, and she knew a little bit about me so she could comfortably put me forward for something. So those things are so key.

Speaker 3:

I think yeah, I love that. There's two things that you say, that there's two ways of being, especially in a big company I'm thinking Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, this side, huge enterprises, right. So a good way to be visible is knowing where those leaders pay attention to and obviously sometimes it's the groups that you join as well and also the voice that you can utilize to talk and as your own platform, where there's thousands, millions of employees, how can you do the shortcut? And I think that's so important. And again, I know, I say that all the time the importance of finding a likeability, affinities with people that may not come across. As you know, you are from the same background or you can attend church, I never know. I think that's an art that you develop through time. But again, again, the power of storytelling comes back into this, which is so good. And you know I talk a lot about personal burning. People think personal burning is just for external business, also what is happening within the business and how you, as well as to your own success. That's very interesting. I love that.

Speaker 3:

So obviously, now you are Goldman Sachs, but before getting to Goldman Sachs, what has been your journey? So JP Morgan was one of them. How long did you stay? I know that you were JP Morgan. I forgot that there's two different companies and very successful companies enterprises. What was the? Was the jump JP Morgan to Goldman Sachs or something happening between before that?

Speaker 1:

No, it was. That was an immediate. That was an immediate job jump. So I guess, after kind of working on a few sort of IT service help desk roles the JP Morgan role was the one where I talked about. You know I came in to do a specific role but then really decided I'd been curious and what wanted to do Something else. And I was supported with that, with my manager, and I was at JP Morgan for actually four and a half years, which at the time I felt like was forever, and I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1:

And you know, I guess the reason I left there is I was very focused on a specific business and a specific area of the bank and I really felt like I wasn't getting to understand how a bank really works from a fully front to back perspective. I didn't really understand how trading impacted the balance sheet or profit and loss and so on. And so the opportunity came up at Goldman Sachs. You know I started to put the feelers out, I had an interview and I was successful and then I made the move and the reason I really liked the role at Goldman it was because of that point explicitly it was across divisions. So it was, you could be doing projects that are focused on the asset management business or private wealth or in our markets business, and then you could be doing projects that kind of span the whole sort of front office, middle office and back office of the firm. And so I really really was. Again, because of this sort of history background and liking to be curious, I really enjoyed that challenge.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, something that you said is so important is that, for the managers out there who are listening to this podcast, you know what you say about JP Morgan. It was not so much JP Morgan. The problem is that sometimes the managers were not able to understand your character and who you are as an employee. And when you recognize, you know again it's people who are happy to do the same thing every time. When you know you have somebody who's a player, it's hard to keep those individuals. You have to give them a chance of them to be challenged. But you also have to understand how, whatever you're looking for, there's a sentence.

Speaker 3:

I always say to any employee that I bring on board so like, what will make you happy in the job? And when I say that, I just question to someone like, huh, nobody ever asked me that. So, yeah, I need to know, because everybody has a different way of why make it. So I want to have independence, I want to be in control. Okay, good, Fantastic.

Speaker 3:

I like to know exactly what I'm doing is right, so on. I want to see if I want to be able to learn. I want to be able to meet people and you can really shape that role, even though somebody can do exactly the same position, but you can still shape it to who they are. But one thing that is important is that if you have a player, if they're not learning something else, they're just going to move somewhere else, and that's basically what happened with you. As you add to what I just say, the element is one of understanding terms of was go men sucks, then? Which got to you? Are you also keeping your option open and like you know what? Let me just see what's going on at go men sucks.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, yeah, I mean it's an absolutely great point and I hear it many times, but you know, people don't tend to leave companies. They leave their managers and so on. In terms of you know, the opportunity. They're very similar organizations. Obviously JPMorgan is a lot bigger but, yeah, it was definitely about the opportunity for me.

Speaker 1:

That made me kind of think about looking elsewhere and, in fairness, I actually looked externally myself. So I reached out to a couple of recruitment consultants and I was actually had a few offers on the table at the time. I hadn't offered with other UK banks, but you know it was Goldman Sachs at the end of the day, and so it was like I have to take this opportunity. But it was. It was the right opportunity for me. And what I would also say is the other opportunities that I had.

Speaker 1:

The other offers were again slightly smaller in the scales, slightly smaller in scope, and I knew I wanted to be more expansive in the work that I wanted to do, the impact that I could have, and this role I knew would give me more of that opportunity, whereas the other role I felt you would still be quite siloed and maybe slightly limited in terms of exposure, the impact and the work that you was doing. So I knew for me what I wanted and what was being important for me, and at the point it was the broad exposure, general understanding of the bank, great visibility and the Goldman's role promised that and it actually delivered. So it was definitely the right choice.

Speaker 2:

As we continue this engaging conversation, remember that Black Rise is more than just a podcast. Where dynamic platform where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with black professionals, entrepreneurs and black owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where black excellence thrives globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five star review on iTunes.

Speaker 3:

With something about you guys that I really love is the fact that you are not afraid of big. Most people will think small, but you're like you know what. It's not big enough for me. Okay, that's great. I mean, Goldman Sachs seems to be pretty much where I am in terms of what they are, but they're also able to see my potential and they can see that I can handle big. We both, at this level, were the bigger the better, and so that's you know. Let's have a big vision, let's go in this amazing, great project. People maybe think a bit smaller I'm not able to do this is too much for me. I don't think I'm capable to do that. What would you say to them?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would just say, look, I think what you put in is what you'll get out right. And I think, even coming from my background even being slightly more of an introverted person I always knew that there was a vision of where I kind of saw myself and where I thought I could get to. I didn't always know how I was going to get there, I didn't always know how I was going to execute, but I knew that I actually it was in me to be capable of significant things, and so I just had to keep betting on myself and knowing that putting myself forward, while it may feel uncomfortable, was the only way that I was going to progress. And that's all I'd seen in life. In my life, growing up, like coming outside of my comfort zone was always going to be the way that I could develop. I could grow either professionally, personally, mentally, but also, you know, if I think about career, salary, all of those type of things. Like I knew I had to keep being able to push myself outside of my comfort zone, and that, for me, meant going bigger.

Speaker 1:

Going bigger in what I was doing, being comfortable that I may not know all of the details, but I know enough to be able to manage risks really well. I know enough to be able to develop the right relationships. I know enough to be able to find who is the right people to help me in delivering something big, because in something huge you're never just solely accountable, it's always. You know this team thing, but I know enough to be able to find the right people who can help along the journey. Generally, I know enough to work well with people. I work well with most people not everyone and like I'm sure there's people that will listen to me. They're not clear but I generally know how to develop those relationships to get stuff done. That was a skill that I thought I need to amplify. That by going big I was able to amplify that even more and Help myself and help build even my career and build what I was trying to achieve even further.

Speaker 3:

Do you know? It's interesting because people always think that to be successful, you have to be loud and bolder and so on. But you are, as you, as you discovered, beginning, you are very composed and reserved. You know you're not loud, but you watch, you made it to the top and people say, well, doesn't look like she'll be the loudest person in the room. So people were. You know we'll have the same character and what. What advice would you give him? Because there's always a disbelief that you have to be the loudest person in the room, you have to have the biggest voice. So then, so on to the top. And you did it really well, with elegance. Yeah, what's your, what's your advice to that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean I love that. I did a panel last year and I mentioned the fact that I was quite introverted and like actually being on a panel for me is like Wow, I didn't think I'd ever be doing that. But again somebody reach out right, who's a natural introvert? And we caught up afterwards and you know, the advice I gave her was you can't all of a sudden be this person that you're not like. If you are introverted, like own that you are more of an introverted person, but you still have to be able to to back yourself and also know when, when it's the time to kind of raise your voice and interject and say Things in it in the forum that you maybe would be reluctant to do. That. And that again comes with experience and comes with a bit of timing and and comes with a bit of knowledge.

Speaker 3:

But I think so when is the time? So tell us clear, when is the time you know to voice out, when is it?

Speaker 1:

I think for me is when I see Like there's a clear risk right, like my, my main role as a program and strategic regulatory manager right is, is to manage risk Right. And so there will be times where everybody's got a view and everybody's got an opinion and people are speaking and sometimes it is just in Listening and then in that quiet moment being just saying has anyone thought about this? Because just asking a question in that quiet moment is a way that you can You've identified something that you've not hearing anybody else talk about Ask the question, because then it's not like I'm shouting but like somebody needs to be able to articulate or answer that question. And if nobody can, then there is a real gap that I've identified that nobody seems to be addressing and then you can get your point across and then you can kind of run that forward and run that through.

Speaker 1:

What I find is and especially when I'm working with you know other colleagues there are a lot of people that want to talk and a lot of people have a lot of opinions. And you know, and I Don't do well in those environments where it's like a shouting match, because I'm generally not going to be that person, but it's, like I said, waiting for that quiet gap and just saying, or even if you can't wait for a quiet gap, just saying, answering, answering the key question that nobody's addressing, because a lot of times people just want to talk as opposed to Identifying what it is that we should be focused on Absolutely, and you're right.

Speaker 3:

You know that, you know I. Sometimes less is more and it's better to actually ask. It's also power in asking question when you already know the answer, but as well to get there. So now you have made your entry into Goldman Sachs. What was your first position at Goldman Sachs?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I started as an associate in the engineering division, as a project manager and business analyst, and you know I came into a team. I had a great manager actually at the time who unfortunately didn't stay around. They went on, you know, to start family and then move, move abroad. But she was fantastic. You know I was working on a project that was a new business initiative and for me it was the biggest thing I'd ever worked on. I remember kind of joining and Having to host a call and the number of people that were joining this meeting. I was completely overwhelmed and to the point that I made earlier in JP Morgan, through no fault of anyone, but the role that I was working on was far smaller. I'd have a project, you'd have a meeting with a few people. This was like we had 40 people on the call and I was just like, oh my goodness, and that was a meeting. Yeah, because it was such a big new initiative and so there was definitely a level of adjustment and you know I had, I had a vice president that I worked for and there was a period of.

Speaker 1:

Actually, this is very different and what you'll find is, whilst Goldman's and JP Morgan are very similar the scale of each of a very different, both great organizations. But you know, if you think about JP Morgan, I think their engineering Arm is like 50,000 people. Goldman's axe entire entire workforce is like 40 something thousand people. So you can just imagine the scale. So it was, it was, it was a lot bigger, and so here you get what I found is, within Goldman there was, you know, one person would do the job of maybe four or five people that were doing the job elsewhere, just because they were a bigger organization. As a result of that, you're, you are busy, but you also are very much an expert in what you're doing because you are, you're having to do all Levels or all different parts of the process. So you know it back to front. So that was. That was very interesting. It was.

Speaker 1:

It was definitely a shell shock and I will say that the culture at Goldman's axe is just unique. Even coming from Different organizations that are, you know, it's very similar in nature. It's a unique culture and it took time to adjust to. The culture is really about Client service, it's about it's about excellence, it's about getting the job done, it's about network, collaboration, teamwork, all of those things are just massive. And what you find at Goldman is a lot of people have been there a long time so. So I've been there 14 years and I still feel quite junior in terms of the people that I look around at, and many have been there for 20 plus years, because there is that real Apprenticeship culture. Like people come in, they come in as a, as an analyst. They all grow in the same sort of class in terms of this. You know school class year and they grow up throughout the firm. So everybody knows everything extremely well. Everybody's super intelligent and really works hard to get things done. I'm a change a little bit Does this?

Speaker 3:

affect what I think about that, the great thing about, as you say that people stay for a long time. I mean, there's a. It's a good place to be at. So, when it comes to, when it comes to diversity, does this affect or people? Do you think that people still have changed, you are happy and they get a chance to stay for a long time? Does this also? I know you're not a diversity expert, but do you think that that's? I mean, you made it to the top, but the center that also it makes it really hard for people to make an entry of is still room for this to happen?

Speaker 1:

There's absolutely still room for that to happen. I just think that when you come in, I think it's even more critically important for you to come in as somebody who's joining the firm to really build a network, because you'll find that I think people who have been here for a while will already have that network, and so one of the things that is very much a massive focus for the culture is actually building your network and Doing things like being part of networks, like it's massively encouraged because it gives you that other connectivity to people around the firm. Everybody at the firm is so open to spending time and sharing their knowledge and Intel and all of that experience. There was a massive catch-up coffee culture, right, that is. I Can't tell you the amount of times I have those in a week and and when I joined, doing that was so important to make sure that I actually started to build those relationships. It meant everybody is so open and open to doing that. It is just a standard thing that we do. So I think that there's absolutely room.

Speaker 1:

And look, every firm needs outside perspectives. Like the world is changing, goldman Sachs is changing, everyone's changing, but we need people that are coming in with fresher ideas, not just the people that have been incumbent, because there will be areas that you might find that actually we may be doing things that other firms have Pivoted, or doing slightly different things and there may be a better way of doing it. So it's absolutely vital that we get people coming in with different, diverse perspectives. Otherwise we don't learn anything that's happening Externally and we don't grow. So a hundred percent it's it's vital that we have people coming in.

Speaker 3:

And I must say I should say that I've been to the Goldman Sachs summer event. It is pretty impressive. This is I've never seen so many black people in finance. I was shockingly good. So, yes, it's definitely beautiful to see as well at how much the company as well invest in in Supporting and shook it should getting that they are. They are committed to it, so this is a great. It's a good to know hundred percent. So you've been in the company for 12 years. How many rules have you had at Goldman Sachs?

Speaker 1:

So, interestingly, I, actually my team, for 13 years and and and that is actually not that common, I mean it happens, but people tend to take mobility across the firm, which I always encourage Because it gives you that broader perspective. However, my team, what I love about my team and what I loved about the experience, was because we don't sit within a Particular business or particular division outside of engineering, we work on projects that were Could span any business, could span any area of the firm, could be regulatory, could be new business, could be anything right. That was just broad, high-risk, strategic for the firm. So actually, every year I pretty much I worked on a new project, I worked on a new initiative, I was always learning. So I never actually felt the need to go and work elsewhere because, actually, I, what I was able to gain over the 13 years of experience was this really broad understanding of how the firm firm works, really broad understanding of the different divisions and and some of the challenges they face, really broad understanding of the regulatory environment.

Speaker 1:

So it gave me a lot of really great firm-wide perspective that I think you probably don't get if you're working just within a business, just within a desk, just within a specific client race. So I stayed there and more recently I've removed to focus on US regulatory programs. But I've definitely enjoyed kind of the the difference in the types of roles and the types of projects that I've run, and so that's kind of why I've stayed in the same team and there's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 3:

I would say you know, I'm rich as well of Something like when you work in an agency, you get to work with different clients, so you don't never get chance to get bored, because it is always somebody come with a crazy idea, so you never feel like you are. You are doing the same redundant Task again and again. But the question I want to ask you because you have the only Only black woman at Goldman Sachs in the UK to have achieved the managing director title. So tell us your secret. We want to know how you do it, how you do it so we can join you as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no worries, I'm not the only at the moment, but I was only in engineering.

Speaker 3:

In this engineer, you are definitely the only yes. It's all the black woman in. You are the only yes, thank you.

Speaker 1:

So how did I do it? It's gonna be. It's like a combination of things, like it's being prepared, like I said, it's doing the work, it's being brilliant at your job, which are kind of the standard things that you expect, and then it's about can ask you a question certain to appear, but I think we're not.

Speaker 3:

We hear like doing the job that's. Doing the job means doing more than what the job is, or doing the job with excellence. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Great question. So I I say it is doing the job with excellence, but also adding your own spin or your own additional over and aboveness to it, and that can be in various different ways. So for me, delivering on a project is kind of like yes, you've delivered a project on time on budget, well done, great. But it's the how that you've done that? Were you able to successfully bring all of the firms, divisions, who are impacted, along on the journey with you? Were you able to ensure that we had a consistent approach? If I think about projects that I work on, I can't just think about this asset management business and this market's business and they want to go off and do their things. Like you have to bring the firm together with you to come to the right outcome for the firm. But like, how have you gone about doing that and are you able to do that successfully? Do you keep your very senior stakeholders posted and aware of progress and status? Are they aware of the risks and are you helping them to actually distill what those risks are and help them, help us, move along? Are you able to ensure that, from a regulatory perspective, for example, that we're making sure that we're meeting all of our requirements? Are you able to give the board or other senior areas of the firm the assurance that they need that Goldman Sachs is compliant? Are you able to interface with regulators? So there's a number of different things that you need to be able to do as part of your role, and I think it's about not just ticking the box but doing it in a way that you know your partners or your senior stakeholders always feel like there may be risk with this project, but it's being managed and I'm aware at all times of the risks and the appropriate oversight is in place. And then I think it's what do you do outside of that? Like?

Speaker 1:

I think a lot of what we like to see in leaders is actually are you a culture carrier? Do you exemplify those leadership qualities? Are you somebody who's able to share your story? Are you somebody that people want to work for? Are you somebody that can get the most out of your team? Are you a good manager? Like, if you manage a certain amount of people, you are also rated on a manager. Do you look after your people? Do you know your people? Do you care about what they want, what they want to do? Are you helping to provide them up with opportunities. So it's being, you know, very much a well-rounded individual in all of your capacity and capabilities, but it will differ slightly from role to role, so it's nuanced but it is. You know, there are standard things that people look out for. To kind of say, this person is a leader and I can see that that person is somebody that people will want to follow.

Speaker 3:

There's two things that you say, that we say you know what I create, and I think there's difference between having a great business and having a great brand. When you think about your competition, people can do exactly that's the what of what you do. Or they can also have a who you're doing for, which is and Simon said, it's something that is very important and you stated that here again, in the position that you are, that you are is how I think people forget the how. It's the how that helps people differentiate. You. You can do exactly. So I don't know. I think about.

Speaker 3:

My first job was at McDonald's. Yeah, good for another method, but I will find a way to say actually we do this, how about we do it differently? The how is when you question the present and figure out how you can do differently. And how also means innovation and leadership love. You know companies, love leaders.

Speaker 3:

Leaders by nature are innovators and that's so important that you just say like, so people will listen to this podcast. How are you demonstrated that you think differently? How are you demonstrating innovation in your delivery? Doing the job right is expected, but if you're able to think, oh, wait a minute, they have different approaches and that's going to change entire you know company system and make one million pounds, maybe more than that. That is so important, right? And what you say is how. I wish people would listen to this and understand that you can do the job, you can be brilliant at it, but if you haven't been able to demonstrate innovation and how you do it differently and better, or even equally good as excellent, that's great, and I love that. I want to add something about leadership, because we didn't ask, in terms of your journey to leadership, how did that start? And also, how do you develop those great leadership skills?

Speaker 1:

But a lot of my career journey not all of it has been deliberate, but I think for me it was knowing what it was like to come into an environment and a workplace and being one of the very few, or also just not being very confident in kind of what I can go for or what the next steps would be. For me, for many years it was like, oh, I'm in the door, great, keep your head down and do the work. And actually it became very clear to me that, you know, I had to really take the mantle in trying to drive my career forward and I had people in variety you know, not just at Gomes, at different areas, like some people are far more invested in some others. But it became very clear that that was something I would have to take control over. And I still think that is true for people today. But what I wanted to do when I started to kind of, you know, manage people or look after people whether that was in the Black network, construct or within my day job was actually be interested and care about what these people wanted to do. Because for me, when I started to manage people, I really wanted to help them be the best version of themselves and also help them get to where they want to be. And that was important for me because, just because I knew what it was like to not have that right, that level of support or that level of engagement or being interested in the career, so that was the first kind of steps into leadership, when I, you know, began managing people, began really taking some ownership of people's careers alongside them, of course, but being responsible and helping to think how can I help, you know, push this person forward? How can I help promote what they're doing? How can I help socialize that?

Speaker 1:

For me it was very important that I was able to be that catalyst and that person for other people. Firstly, because you know it's the right thing to do, but also because, if I think about my team and how I'm going to be successful, I need to make sure the people who work with me are successful as well, otherwise I'm not going to be successful. So that was extremely important. And then, secondly, I think, you know, after a few years of running projects and running programs, it became very clear that I could do a good job, and so I wanted to broaden that exposure and broaden that impact. So I wanted to work on more projects. I wanted to, you know, have people who are working on more than one thing and kind of get a bit broader exposure. And so, again it was. It was about, you know, asking, asking for more access, asking for more opportunities, showcasing that I was able to deliver, but also, you know, making the point that I was ready for the next step and demonstrating that in whatever ways I could.

Speaker 3:

Claire, you make it look so easy. It must have been something that didn't go as the plan. Is anything that you wish that you knew sooner in your career? Or you know? You probably, like me, you believe that mistakes are also part of the lessons that we need to learn to be where we are today. But is anything that you know? You stumble across that and me say that you've learned from that? People can also learn because, yeah, it's incredible career that you've had. I mean, it's not finished, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I think I've been very much risk adverse for a long time and that probably goes back to my childhood a little and it goes back to just the nature of who I am and I think that that kind of being reserved and actually not really believing that I could get to the next level and not even thinking it was feasible because you know there was no one really who looked like me at sort of managing director level for a while, for a good few years, it kind of made me more reluctant to take the big risks and to take chances and I feel like as a result of that I probably didn't push and probably came across a lot more, I'd say, junior than I was and there would be instances where I probably slide away from opportunities and and conversations just because of that inherent just holding myself back. You know I wish I'd backed myself more a lot earlier and I had the confidence earlier on to kind of put myself forward. For opportunities.

Speaker 3:

So what did you have to do? How did you come out then? So, because obviously now you're doing it, but what was your ha ha moment?

Speaker 1:

What would I say? The ha ha moment was, I think it was sometimes when you look around and you see your colleagues or your peers and others who are going for certain promotions or who have made the promotion, and think, actually, I've worked with you and you know, this maybe isn't the best example, but I've worked with you and you're great, but I know that I'm just as good or you know, or I'm even better, or I know I can do what you're doing. Actually, we talked about, we've talked about things and I have exactly the same ideas. So why am I not giving myself the option and the opportunity? And so, again, it was the big risk for me that I took was actually saying you know, I want to go for the next promotion, which was managing director, and as, as we mentioned, there were there'd been no black female managing directors in EMEA, in engineering. I don't think we'd had any in the US even. Actually, so, it was.

Speaker 1:

It was definitely a I'm going to draw a line in the sand and this is what I want to shoot for. But that that came after a while of you know, I'd been in my team for a while. I had the experience, I had the exposure. Whilst I always learn every year, I wasn't, I wasn't growing in the way that I wanted to grow, and I saw, I just knew there was time for change, and so I had to just put my hat on the table and say, look, I'm going to go for it.

Speaker 1:

And even when I went for it, there was moments of doubt, 100% Like it's a process.

Speaker 1:

It's a two year process, for you know the promotions we nominate managing directors every two years.

Speaker 1:

You know moments within that two years where I was just like, oh, this is, I don't think it's going to happen, or you had a bad meeting or something just didn't go great, and you were just sort of, oh dear, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe now's not the time, but I had to double down. A lot of that happened whilst we were working from home, and leveraging my family was massively important at that point, just having them around and just, you know, talking to them, and when I'd maybe had not a great meeting, going downstairs and just talking to my family and just being like oh I'm not sure, and just having them there to kind of show you on, was so important because it kind of made you think actually you can do this and coming back fighting. I think just it was just that absolute perseverance and not giving up and Not not backing yourself. I think in all of these things, if you don't back yourself, nobody else is gonna back you so you have to wow.

Speaker 3:

We don't joke when it comes to getting that position. They want to mention when I'm like two years, definitely, well, and the person not perseverance, because I can never pronounce this word, but yes, once, definitely part of your, of your strength and resilience. I should say that as well. Yeah, I can't pronounce this, so that's good. Wow, you definitely deserve your title. And again, you feel that you say this. I hear you story.

Speaker 3:

There's so many things I can relate to. When I saw people that how you know for me is like I'm not better than that person had to get the job. I didn't do the exercise of putting relationship, but also asking for what I wanted, because I wasn't expecting somebody to know what was in my heart. But if you don't know this, you are happy where you are and that this is so important to. And one was that my mom's used to Say that when I was young, all the time is like if you want a cookie, you're gonna have to ask me, I can't beat your mind, and so on. So it's so, so key. And again, you know, sometimes the setback, what you say is the same thing of exercising you might come into the scale and it's a bad day, you put on weight, are you gonna go back and eat lots of cookies? No, keep going, keep going.

Speaker 3:

Those setbacks are part of the journey, but what will make you get to the end of success? That you want is a Consistency, and that's something that you've demonstrated very well and again, the importance of. Sometimes you need to just get your mind out of this and speak to you, know, get you speak to your family and get out Fresh air and so on, because you become can become quite self-obsessing. I can drive you crazy, isn't it? 100%, 100%, so clear from where you are. I'm looking at you might be the next president of. I'm missing to all my beautiful guests. You guys are so Inspirational. So what's the vision looks like for you, claire? What's next?

Speaker 1:

I want to continue to grow like who knows, like we sort of have a black female partner in EMEA who knows what's next. I've been very deliberate this year in thinking about like what is, what is next steps for me and how can I leverage my platform right. I think a lot of the time the introverted, humble kind of quiet person and me plays down kind of the role that I have and the level that I am and kind of what I've achieved. And this year is definitely about owning that and actually making sure that I am using that as a as a platform, either for Myself or for others. It's just about the next level of growth how can I be impactful, more impactful in the firm I thoroughly enjoy the work that I do and how can I Make even more of an impact? And what? How can I? How can I broaden that?

Speaker 1:

But also externally, like how can I be more involved with causes that I'm really passionate about, whether it's charities, whether it's Good causes externally, whether or not it's about, you know, bringing people who have come from, you know, fairly disadvantaged backgrounds like myself, and making sure that they're aware that there is a space for them. So for me it's all about growth. I am where I am, but like the next step is is bigger, and again it's about continuing to go big. So so, watch this space. I would say yeah.

Speaker 3:

And I think the best word for you is big. You've big in everything you do. This is amazing, and I know that you are. I can't wait to see what you do next. This is so exciting and it just it's so lovely to see to see your progression. I love the fact that you, when you think about growth, is not just about you. You think about growth for others was a book when you think about growth and think about growth for themselves. But what you're saying is so important that there's so much we need to do, so much. We people undervaluing the power of impact, and that impact is really what also help you build a great legacy, and so I love just doing this podcast just to normalize the so many talented individuals within the black community, so people can learn your story. So, claire, it's been a pleasure to have you. What's if you wanted to want to stop you? What's the best way? Linkedin.

Speaker 1:

LinkedIn. I'm definitely there. I'm active. I'm not super, super active, but I'm there. So look, look me up and definitely drop me a note, like I'm always happy to spend time and speak with people. And thank you for the villa. Thank you for doing this. You talk about impact. You talk about doing it for others like you are the epitome of that. So thank you and, yeah, I've enjoyed our conversation.

Speaker 3:

Thank, you so much. I so did. I listen black, as my business doesn't even feel like work. I feel like I'm having the time of such a pleasure for all amazing listeners. I hope that you enjoy this podcast. This is a perfect example, like if you put your mind into what you want you need to know. I think it's important for people to listen to this podcast that you need to know what you want. When you know what you want, you have a strategy how to get there. You understand the power of innovative mindset. How remember we talked about how it's not so much about what is about how you do it. And, obviously, keep on developing your leadership skills and remember that the power of growing and fulfilling your life is also about impact. This is the end of this podcast. Make sure that you tell your friends, make sure to subscribe and I will see you very soon. Bye, everybody.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Rise. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit the Black Risecom to find out more. This is Black Rise, where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising.