Black Rise

How to Navigate Your Career with Curiosity and Innovation - With Tosin Lanipekun

• Black Rise • Season 1 • Episode 17

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When Tosin Lanipekun shares his narrative, it's one that resonates deeply with the spirit of tenacity and the art of connecting dots from a diverse past. The co-founder of Image and Time and host of the Ready Next Podcast walks us through his Nigerian roots, his mother's profound influence, and a life sculpted by resilience and persistence. It's a tale that celebrates the essence of Black Rice's endeavor to link businesses with the remarkable talents within the Black community, all while applauding the individual stories that forge the leaders of today.

Have you ever wondered what it's like to balance the binary worlds of IT and creativity, or how student politics and entrepreneurship can converge within the halls of a university? I, your host, reminisce about my own journey at Obafemi Awolowo University, navigating the realms of architecture, music, and early business ventures. This episode is not just about recounting past experiences; it's a shared space where we embrace the wisdom of collaboration and the creative spirit that ignites the future.

As we wrap up our discussion with Tosin, we cast an eye towards the evolving relationship between technology, business, and human imperfection. We uncover the transformative potential of embracing our flaws in an age of technological precision, and how this paradox can enhance creativity. Lastly, we extend an open invitation to you, our listeners, to be a part of the legacy that Black Rice is nurturing—a legacy rooted in excellence, motivation, and the collective drive for a brighter future. Join us on this voyage of discovery and be inspired by the potential that lies within each story, each challenge, and each triumph.

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Black Rise is not just a podcast but an extension of our Business platform. We are on a mission to bridge the gap between businesses and the immense potential of Black talent. We provide a dynamic platform where businesses and individuals can connect, collaborate, and prosper with Black professionals, entrepreneurs, and black-owned companies. We strive to showcase the value, creativity, and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity, and mutual success.

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Speaker 1:

we have to hire for a few things character, competence and resilience. I need to know that when we turn our back, this person can do the job. You know, regardless of how good they are on paper, they have resilience, they have grit, they're going to stay there and make sure it gets done.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Black Rice Podcast. You'll get a way to inspiring conversation with La Creme de la Creme of Black talent, who are leaders of seven figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. I'm your host, flavilla Fongeng, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on his journey. Black Rice isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our missions to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and enterprise. We strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackricecom to find out more.

Speaker 2:

Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode on the Black Rice Podcast. I'm your host and also founder of Black Rice, but also the Black Rice Podcast that you're listening relentlessly. I hope that you are not new and you've been consistent with being inspired by the top Black leaders in this space across a number of industries, and if there's anybody that you want me to interview, please send them my way. Please do an introduction and it's going to be another great one. You know that I want to give you the best la crème de la crème, as the French would say, and I would say as well, and I'm so excited. So, a bit of a disclaimer Tosin and I know each other for a couple of years now a couple of years and it's people that you know. Sometimes you look in the bag, you know. You look from far, like LinkedIn. You look at people. You might not like their posts, but you know that they're doing some things, and that happens a lot in my own personal life. I really like what you do, but you didn't like my post, did you? Okay, but you know that we're watching and, tosin, I have this amazing relationship. It's such a good. You know, when you look at someone's like, if they have such a good heart and they're also great at what they do, it feels like it's a match in heaven. And so tell people that I love to have around me, because you need around you a good average of people that make up business more exciting. So I'm super excited to have with me Tosin and I need to come, and Tosin and I need to come. I want to make sure I pronounce it in their very Tosin Lanipekun. I didn't do it right, so let me do a Tosin Lanipekun and Nigerian. Obviously, I have a lot of Nigerian. They're very good at what they do.

Speaker 2:

This is another one that is in the same space as me, in a creative space. He's a co-founder of Image and Time, but also, like me, also runs his own podcast that I highly advise to listen, because I've also had the pleasure of going joining his podcast, which is called Ready Next Podcast. He's done a lot of great things and I don't want to tell you everything because we're going to have a chance to have a conversation with him and listen to his story as a movie. So, tosin, how are you? It's good to have you.

Speaker 1:

Hey Flavilla, it's a pleasure to be on your podcast. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

My pleasure. You're so good. Just the sound of your voice makes me already so happy to have you with me. We want to enlighten the generation, or give some more wisdom to the older generation on this podcast so that they can really showcase this talent, this black talent, across all industries. We're both in a creative space. I'd like to start from the beginning, which is your childhood. Tell me more about your beginning. What type of child were you? Were you troublesome? Were you were you? Were you posed and calm? And also I would like to know in terms of people influence you from a very young age.

Speaker 1:

Wow, I think that's a fantastic question. To start with, I'm going to take it slightly unconventionally what kind of child was I? Maybe give you three keywords. I was rambunctious, I was curious, but I was also very sensitive to my environment and to what people said. I grew up as you probably can tell We've been friends, so you know this In the 80s and in 90s.

Speaker 1:

I grew up in Nigeria. I was born in Lagos and the first in a family of three. A very small gap between myself and my junior sister, and then our little brother came along much later. What started out as a beautiful family unit mom and dad and the three of us quickly devolved into a single parent family household very early on. Now I caveat that by saying we still then went on to have an amazing childhood, all three of us and that's largely owing to our amazing, dynamic and hardworking mom. I'm going to talk about my mom in this part quite a bit. She created a wonderful home environment filled with love and filled with other family members. You know how they say in Africa, that it takes a village to raise a child. She happened to be the first child of her own parents as well, and so she helped raise some of her junior siblings who, in and out, ended up staying with us at one point or the other. So, big house, extended family, lots of love, gave me a lot of room for my misadventures, my capers, my naughtiness.

Speaker 1:

But what was starting to show in my early years was that I found myself straddling the line between the arts and science. I remember being a voracious reader. You know. I get lost in everything. Anything that has words on it. I'm really excited, I dive into it.

Speaker 1:

I love to play act as a kid and I remember a few plays in school in primary school actually that I acted in. I remember the last one I did, actually, where I was a head teacher, in a play called Juvenile Offenders. Just forgive the title, but it was a very interesting play. But yeah, my upbringing was brilliant. My mom no prizes for guessing was one of the most positive influences growing up and she still she still is one of my heroes, if I would put it that way. She actually was a computer engineer, retired, of course, long ago, but she was one of the pioneers in that field. Both my parents actually are engineers. But yeah, I was really drawn to that science side because of her engineering career and I'll talk a little bit about that as well. So my early years we're fun, we had lots of people around, I was given the room to explore and be myself.

Speaker 1:

But beyond that I think, yeah, I then started to discover myself a bit more at secondary school, as I said, drawn a bit to the sciences, but my artistic side started to show up itself in debating, in fine art, in music. I picked up playing the piano very young, all by myself and to my mom's headache at the time she we didn't have a piano at home but I would borrow literally keyboards from my friends that we had a neighbor that had a keyboard and I would borrow it and bring it to the house and make a lot of noise whilst trying to learn the instrument. And my mom traveled a fair bit, but she knew that she couldn't come back without books. For me it didn't have to be on any particular subject, she just needed to say I bought this for you. Usually it was something to do with the arts, like I said, or science, and then at some point, whatever she brought in, I was happy as long as a book.

Speaker 1:

I read everything from Argos, catlogs to Encyclopedia. I think it was about 97 or 8. I was reading so we had quite a number of books in the house. I was reading the unabridged version of the complete works of Shakespeare and one of my aunts said what are you reading? It's so wonderful. So do you even understand what it says? Not really, but it's interesting, it's dramatic, it's entertaining. People are killing each other In the name of love. Exactly Use your idea of the kind of childhood I had. Yeah, I found myself kind of developing that sense of curiosity further. Of course, sense of adventure gets into a lot of trouble, but I've always been very single-minded and very self-sufficient and independent. That gives a sense of my childhood.

Speaker 2:

I love it. Honestly, you can't see me right now, but I have tears of joy Because when you say the Argos Catalog, we could spend hours just watching this. But I think sometimes we don't realize the power of books allows us to travel Again something that your parents you come from and may be limited, bring you away. You don't have a chance to travel around the world. You can travel with books and also fuel your imagination Again something we often say that people are narrow-minded, don't go outside their world. Nobody has an objective view of the world, and the best way to be as objective as it could potentially be is to read outside things that you do not understand. I love how your mom gives you such a variety of content to read from. I'm so happy to have Argos Catalog, which is amazing, though, because it's like oh, wow, okay, this is interesting and it feels you know.

Speaker 2:

I would say that if, tomorrow, we were removed from memories, we wouldn't be able to create, and creativity is never a blank canvas. It's always on base on the information that we fuel and information that we consume, and that's one thing that I don't know if we do for you, for your agency, but I always push my team to go and go into fine art, go and explore how. I come from fashion space, so I always see how designers have consumed information from other space. You reapply in their creation and it is so important that your mom developed that, and I think that is also interesting by what you said, or since we always have this mindset oh, it's when I join, you have to be an engineer, a doctor, accountant, your mom, which is the opposite. You know, go explore and feel yourself and that mixture of technology and creativity is very, it's very different. I love that.

Speaker 1:

No, it's brilliant. I mean just getting a bit deeper into some of my upbringing and you're so right, you know I do the same thing with my team where I asked them what is inspiring this work? What reservoir of research, of knowledge, of insight are you pulling from to do the work that you're doing? You can never feel other things from an empty cup. You have to come to the creative space with, armed with some knowledge, some insight, some background information that you've acquired, and the best way to do it is to acquire it along your life's journey, as you go on day to day. Be curious.

Speaker 1:

One of my lecturers early on at university and I'll get to you in a second says never walk through this world with your eyes closed. What it means by that is a lot of times, of course, our eyes are open but we're not looking, we're not seeing, we're not observing. Why are certain colors used for certain industries? Why are certain roads smaller than others? Why are some countries driving on the left and some driving on the right? Ask these questions. It gets you closer and closer to what you're doing and to the answer.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, just going back to my early life for a moment, one of the things I also credit my mom for is really pushing me to explore the various facets of my potential Quite early. I remember I did a lot of visits to her office during the holidays. Just to give context, my mom was one of the pioneering staff of the country, of Nigeria's telecom sector. So the government of this national telecoms company called NET at the time National External Telecommunications, pretty much a version of British telecoms and she was one of the pioneer staff and at the time I was sort of in my sort of coming up to 10, early teens. She was in charge of one of the largest data centers where the mainframe computers were, and so I didn't know at the time but I had sort of a ringside seat to what was the evolution of computing. You would walk into this cavernous rooms where you just have rows and rows and rows of mainframe computers and the place was freezing cold and you had to be given either a jacket or a jumper to stay in there because obviously these machines needed to be cooled and little things.

Speaker 1:

One official or someone she handed me over to will say do you know what COBOL or Fortran or BASIC is? Do you want to learn a bit of code? Do you understand how to use terminals and these are precursors to a lot of the computer language we use today. And I was just doing those things out of curiosity and just basically a lack of something better to do during the holidays. You're coming with me to work, go and sit with that person and learn something and then at the end of the day she'll quiz me on what I learned. And I loved it. I stepped into those rooms and I felt like I was in heaven. So I knew at an early age I would do something confusing related. The other side I also knew was that I loved to draw and she stroked that kind of ability in me as well. And those two things have come through one way or another throughout my journey, even into higher education, which I can talk about now, or perhaps I'll pause and let you no, that's okay, I think it's good.

Speaker 2:

I think what you're talking about is the importance of parenthood in driving us to enable ourselves and I think it's important. I love the idea of your mom comes like go and find out what you can learn, and it's so excited, like it's a bit of an adventure as well. It's like what can you report to me? Tell me what you've learned. I want to learn from you. It's a beautiful way of gamifying as well Education and curiosity and your key to be able to own themselves. And I'm an obsessed learner. I'm, like you say, veracious reader. I'm a veracious, curious person, always wanted to ask why I ask why so often? Just because I'm nosy, but I would use these skills as because my job required me to ask questions. But I think it's just me. I'm just naturally curious and want to learn from everything. But I think it's just a beautiful way of looking at life. So, yes, you were talking about education. So what was your journey? Because you were between IT and creativity, which is very different.

Speaker 1:

I think I honestly and I must say something about not being sure, even when you have many options. I've come to learn that there are people in this world that have a multiplicity of talent. Sometimes they get confused by that and they get stuck in the rut and are worried about not being able to clearly choose one part or the other. But I would say to that young person that's listening to this podcast don't worry, take the road less traveled, explore all your potential and see what comes through. I started preparing for uni knowing that I could either end up on the arts side or on the engineering or computer sciences side, and what I did was I actually had, just prior to going to university, I picked up drawing quite intensely. I was drawing all sorts of things, whether it's houses or just fine arts or technical drawing. There was a book from my time at secondary school, a book on technical drawing, that I decided to replicate page for page in the whole book. So I then decided to apply, for you could apply for two places. So I applied for computer science and architecture and, as it turns out, I was selected for architecture. I went to what I would call and pardon me, I know you say I'm a little bit like I undersell sometimes, but this I can't sell enough. I went to what I would call the greatest university in my view in West Africa. It's called Obafemiahuala University. We call it Great Ife, just like Great Britain. It's an amazing school, so proud of the school because a lot of great Nigerian great people went to that school and of course, I'm biased and there are other great schools in Nigeria, being honest. But I had such a lovely time there and it turns out that architecture was a fantastic foundation for me, because what you do in architecture is you actually have to blend both science and art. You have to blend both logic and magic to create brilliant things. You are taught about the responsibility of building things that have to last for a long time. You are taught about being resourceful and being broad in your thinking to be able to build things that human beings are going to use in various contexts. You want to build an airport. You need to know how planes take off and land. You want to build a hospital. You need to know how emergency rooms work and now, surgery rooms and theaters work. You want to build a school. You need to know the flow of students, the flow of teachers and create spaces for play as well as work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So architecture was a fantastic grounding for me.

Speaker 1:

I would go on to get my first two degrees in that course from that school, so I spent quite a bit of time there. It was one of the best times of my life. I made so many lifelong connections, including actually meeting my wife, and I sharpened my skills outside of academics in different areas. So my music went up to another level. I played for a youth group in school, I played the piano. Student politics I got into my department.

Speaker 1:

I was a public relations officer at some point, and the most important one, weirdly enough, was then I started taking my first steps in entrepreneurship at uni. I had this brainwave in my second year, I think, that our architecture department needed a magazine, but we thought we needed to do it differently and we by we I mean I teamed up with a friend, a very close friend, I shout out Kaede Adekone. We convinced our then head of department to allow us create what I believe was the first notice board magazine in the school. At the time it was called the Emporium, meaning the shop. My friend Kay was the wordsmith and I was the artsy one and for a period it became this hotly anticipated thing published in the department. People would go to this board and you will see a group of 20 students reading it 9 AM on the morning after it's released. We release it almost around midnight the night before and people will be anticipating and go and read and all of these things.

Speaker 1:

When I look back I realize that allowing young people to really express themselves creatively especially in the day that we are in now, where you're more likely to find a young person with a mobile phone or an iPad you're robbing them of creativity, the creative license to dream, to explore. So we did everything from drawings to sort of cartoon sketches, to illustrations, to gossip, to narratives, to exploring the subject matter we were in school to explore around architecture and design, the little that we knew. We tried to make some creative narratives around and it was very interesting. Further on I did more entrepreneurial ventures. At some point I was making greeting cards for the lovers on campus.

Speaker 2:

I love that. What do you actually tell us in a minute? Because I think one thing that is beautiful is that the sooner you experience entrepreneurship, the sooner you can explore your own self, the more you grow. But can I ask you what was maybe some of the first lessons of entrepreneurship that you've learned? It's interesting because Richard Branson's story said exactly the same when he started this student magazine book and monetized it as well. So, yes, so interesting in terms of the first lesson that you've learned about entrepreneurship.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think one of the fun and that's a really good question for the villa one of the first lessons is one that I use a lot in life now and it is if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. As an individual you can achieve a lot, that goes without question. But if you really want to make something that scales or that is a bit bigger than the personal capacity you have, at least partner up to do it. I remember doing that magazine. I had the brainwave but I felt a bit under-equipped to write long, multi-page narratives. I just didn't enjoy it. I could, but I just didn't enjoy it.

Speaker 1:

But this was what my friend lived, breathed, woke up, slept, thinking about. So for him it was not work, and the creative side for me was not work either. So that kind of matchup make things a lot easier. So that's one great lesson that I would say those early days I took away. Another one is learning to navigate, selling stuff and asking to be paid, being able to value your talent. Of course you can guess that some things that I tried to sell I severely undersold myself and in some instances you give things away because you're just moved by emotion. And then you look back and you realize, hang on, you've given half of your stock, half of what you invested, half of the time you've given everything away. And so you start to learn those lessons that entrepreneurship is about value exchange. Don't be afraid to put a price on the value that you deliver.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's probably one of the things that is really hard for creatives to put a value to their creativity. I remember that quote I don't remember what the quote, but it was a story about Picasso where this woman went to Picasso and asked can you please draw me this? Can you draw me? I think herself or something. And he did it in five minutes and he said that would be 40,000. But I said it only took him five minutes For me to draw in five minutes. It was 35 years of experience and working to do that.

Speaker 2:

And I think one of the difficulties and I wonder if we can explore that for all the creative because I remember when I started this work, my agency and I made the mistake of aligning my services to freelancers on upwork, on people per hour. I said, ok, if you're charging $50 for a logo, I'm going to charge 500 pounds for a logo. I feel as if it was oh my god, that's so cheap. You know what I mean oh my god, it's so cheap. It's like, oh god damn it.

Speaker 2:

I left so much money on the table and the woman was like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I need to understand and I remember doing value-based understanding, especially in a creative space, has changed my life forever. But I think sometimes if you work fast and you're charged by the hour, you're leaving a lot of money on the table. Somebody will say, oh, it would take me 30 hours, but I can do it in five minutes. But what do people value? And I think that's a difficult thing for a lot of creative out there. And I wonder, if you can move on to the next chapter, what advice would you give to value creative, value understanding, so people don't undercharge and don't make the same?

Speaker 1:

mistakes. I think that's again a fantastic question. When you start doing business, invariably you're going to take some missteps. You're going to make mistakes around pricing and selling your craft or selling whatever it is that you produce. But what you have to very quickly learn is that there are two ways you can look at it. You can simply go the mathematical way and say, OK, how much time have I spent, how much resources have I spent? What am I delivering here in terms of time and materials? But I think I would encourage our listeners on this podcast to take many steps further.

Speaker 1:

In my experience and in my learning, what I've seen is that, yes, there is the intrinsic value in what you are delivering, but you must consider the context. Context is the first thing I'll say. I mean, if you were designing a logo for a big Fortune 500 company, you clearly know you cannot price it the same way as if you were designing a logo for a very small startup that's taking its first steps into entrepreneurship. You know this. Now, how do you get to those numbers? Start by breaking it down. I mean, one of the things I'm very grateful for I think we'll get there further in the conversation is that I then spent a large chunk of my career working within financial services here in the UK. One of the things that I learned is that there's such a thing as just taking in the overall value of your investment in whatever it is you're producing. Now they call it cost centers, and what a cost center simply is is that you need to think about the fact that you're using electricity, the space that you're using one way or another is rented or is paid for. You are consuming a lot of services, the manpower that is directly working with you and those even delivering services to you in terms of second and third party services. That should be considered as well. You must also consider that you will have some contingencies on foreseen circumstances, on foreseen hiccups that may come up. All of these need to be factored in, and this is what, in financial services terms, they cover by having a margin or a spread, and you have to be very clear about how you want to picture yourself in the industry.

Speaker 1:

One thing that also is very good as a second sort of thought starter for the people listening to us is having benchmarks. How do you benchmark pricing in your industry? What is the top end agency or consultancy, what are they charging and you have to figure this out. We are now in the information age. You can find this kind of information what is the median pricing and what is sort of the low end and then you have to decide where you want to play.

Speaker 1:

I'll use the analogy of car companies. A car company like Volkswagen they sell luxury cars at the top end of the market, but they also sell every day cars for the everyday person, working class. So you can buy from Volkswagen, you can buy a Skoda or you can buy a Lamborghini. They sell, they actually own the Lamborghini Mark. They have differentiated their business and they target a type of consumer or a type of customer with Lamborghini. So, for instance, you probably have never seen a Lamborghini advert on TV, because it's not for the guys who sit in front of TVs. What they will do with the Lamborghini is they will park it right beside a yacht at a yacht sale where they're selling boats and yachts.

Speaker 1:

So the question now is understanding the differential in pricing for the product for the context for the clients that you have is absolutely crucial and then understanding as well the unit economics of your own business. How much does it cost me to do the work? How much am I paying my staff, my vendors, any third party cost that I'm incurring? You need to understand that, and then you need to understand where you then want to peg yourself. It doesn't matter if your margins are at 70%, but if that is what obtains in your industry, fantastic. But if you operate slim margins in your industry, you cannot be the guy that comes in and charges a 70% markup. Your markup has to be similar to what your industry offers, and I know that's a bit broad, but I think if we get into the metrics and the mathematics of it, we might just spend the whole. I know, I know, I know.

Speaker 2:

It's a conversation started with people to really think of the importance of understanding your niche and understanding your overheads and understanding the position that you want to have. This is all important in your pricing. So, coming back to your story, that's where we were. So you went and studied architecture out of logic and creativity, which I love that, how you presented it, and it's very important. I wish more UK builders understand the importance of creating things that last, because they definitely do not do that. So where are you now in terms of your entry? I'm curious in terms of education, but also leading to your entry into the business world.

Speaker 1:

Interestingly enough for me it's a very long, almost seamless narrative because, as it turns out, I actually met my business partner at university, so it goes as far back as that and I'm talking many decades ago. It was a year my junior in the same department. We weren't really friends until towards sort of the end of our course, and then we very quickly discovered that we both had a knack for business and we dabbled into a bit of commercial work. I mean, I would even call it groundbreaking at the time, because we were working for one of the new banks out there in the big wide world. We actually were bold enough to go pitch them and win some work while still students. But then fast forward a few years later. I was now in the UK to further my studies this was now me going on my third degree and it was in digital media and then I discovered that hang on a minute, he's also in the UK also doing a similar thing, and so we reconnected more as friends actually, and good friends. We were now in corporate Britain pursuing our careers. I started, I think, one of my first jobs that I really loved. Actually, before I left Nigeria, I worked as a junior architect for an amazing firm called ATO Architects. That was a very foundational period for me, but I knew that I wanted to do more than architecture by that point I knew so.

Speaker 1:

When I came to the UK and I finished my studies, my first job was actually in what I would call experiential marketing and I worked for. What I then discovered with one of the oldest players in that industry is a company called GPJ Co, short for George P Johnson and company. By that time I think they'd been in the industry for about 70, 80 years and what they essentially did was they were one of those creative agencies that you called in experiential agencies. You call them in when you had large events at the O2 or at Wembley and they would create the full experience from all of the boots and the stands to the music, to the lights, camera action, everything. So I was employed as a design at that experiential agency and that gave me a front row seat to see how large events like CES in Las Vegas I think we worked at some point on things like a Mobile World Congress which holds in Barcelona to see how those events are put together and the amount of creativity that goes on in spatial design. So the connect here was that I had the architecture background but I also was now exploring my pure play, design and creativity, and that marriage actually fit very well into this first role.

Speaker 1:

And from then on I worked in a few agencies and then moved on to work in corporate communications, within banking actually, and I remember I worked in I can mention a few the likes of JP Morgan, ubs, credit Suisse I think Credit Suisse was my last one but then I realized that I still wanted to build something significant in the creative space that will provide design services and fulfill that. I saw a gap in the market for that and by this time my friend had actually moved back to Nigeria with his family, so his young family. They decided, you know, they'd done their time in the UK and it was time to move back. And so I had a discussion with him and said you know, I wanna start an agency, I wanna start a business. And he goes hang on, hold it, hold it.

Speaker 2:

you get to that. Cause I wanna ask you a question, cause I think we missed a little bit. I wanna know in terms of what made you come to the UK, and also I'm curious to know in terms of what other things that you were not prepared for, because you know, nigeria, uk, is a different culture. Coming in working in yeah, coming in working in a British environment before you started your business Again, brilliant question.

Speaker 1:

So what made me come to the UK? I wanted to get into this new thing that I felt was an extension of my creative world, which was digital media. And the way we were seeing digital media at the time was that you would see great ads on TV. You would see that this was now the advent, the start of set stop boxes becoming a thing. You know, the likes of multi-choice that they called in Africa was launching at that time, so they put a dish in your house DSTV, and in the UK, here of course, you had sky starting to do the same thing. How do you design? So I was consumed about how do you design for TV? How do you design those interludes? How do you design those items at the start and end of programs? Where can you learn that? And then I discovered this course called digital media and I saw that in the sort of course description. That's actually where they were starting. It was one of the things that you would be taught how to do. So I was quite intent on applying and getting in.

Speaker 1:

And also, you may have picked up on this, but my mom also studied in the UK, but at the time their generation came to the UK. They didn't like it here. It was too cold, but not just the weather, they felt people were a little bit too distant, you know, and they all hurried back home after the course. Interestingly enough, actually, she was a pioneer at one of the engineering schools here. She was the first woman to go to that school, but that's a story for another day. But yeah, so I then applied and got into this program and, yeah, there I was, studying digital media in the UK and to talk about cultural difference oh my God, how many chapters, how much time have we got?

Speaker 1:

The first thing that hits you about the UK is and I think this happens with the cold versus warm countries is that we're in Africa. Wherever you go in Africa, the sun is out shining All day, from early morning till late at night. You've got the sun and you take it for granted, and then I get into this country, I think, late autumn, early winter, and it was cold, gray and dark. I just don't understand it. Why is the sun setting at four o'clock and why is it that when I say hello to people, I don't get hello back? Why is it that I can't smile at you and get a smile back what is going on, and then I realized that there are cultural nuances, cultural differences, and those have to be respected.

Speaker 1:

I have, in my experience, I've got white British friends, white European friends, americans as friends, and I understand that there is such a thing as nuance in culture, but there's also such a thing as impressions or, you know, implicit bias that isn't really explicit. People don't say, oh, I don't know you, so I'm not gonna talk to you, you know. But that is also part of it, whereas in Africa everyone is your friend, everyone is your neighbor, you know. I mean literally, you don't need to really know the person to get a hello and a response back.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and you say yourself like when you black, you black where you come to you are in London, there's so much diversity and cultural differences. I remember people say to me oh my gosh, you're very. You know, I'm French, born in African and French culture, so French people are very direct. So for some people it might be perceived as oh my gosh, you're so rude, and you know so. It's all these things that are interesting, and part of the people who come to another country is that the ability to adapt right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And you know, just for balance, you know I have to say this. You know you find that place this wherever you may, but I think that the longer you live in Britain, the more you learn to speak in what I call flowery language or nuanced language, versus direct language, which you're used to, coming from Africa. So the African will say I'm not happy today, but the Brit might say it's not such a great day for me, you know. Tell me what it is. I'm not too sure. I'm still trying to figure it out. It was I'm not happy. You know I have a headache and that's the end. You know so. But you didn't realize that there are cultural nuances and at this point in my life I'm as much British as I'm African. I understand my roots, my roots are African, but I also understand my socialization and nurture and environment, being British, and I respect both. Are there nuances? Are there pros and cons on each side? Absolutely, you know.

Speaker 2:

Being honest, yeah, as we continue this engaging conversation, remember that Black Rise is more than just a podcast. Where dynamic platform where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with black professionals, entrepreneurs and black owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where black excellence thrives globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five star review on iTunes. You're being nice? I think I'm still very French.

Speaker 1:

Yes, you are actually.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my God, I love talking to you. So much fun and okay. So, yes, so adaptability, come to another country. There's so many things happening, so it's funny because most people, when they enter this journey into entrepreneurship, is a frustration. But for you, what was your journey to entrepreneurship? Obviously you mentioned your friend going back to Nigeria. How did that happen? How did that desire to go? Wait a minute, let's do something together.

Speaker 1:

At this point. We're really close friends and we know that if we were, I think the way I felt which I think he echoed as well was, if we were to choose to have a business partner, each of us will put our names in the top three of that list. But what then actually sealed the deal for me was actually and being absolutely open here when I said I was leaving my job to go start a business, I think he was so worried that he actually immediately booked a flight to the UK. He arrived and said listen, two things. One, maybe you don't do it just like me. Just like me, you have a young family.

Speaker 1:

At that point. It wasn't too long after that time, I'd gotten married and I think we had our first child, maybe even the second one at that time, and but they were little, they were really young, and he was worried about that. He had, you know, it was in a similar scenario and so he was worried. But then, secondly, the sort of excitement and knowing my story and my journey, because what had been happening to me was that maybe in the five or six years leading up to that, I would get people calling me up and saying, oh, I have this idea, this business idea. I'd like you to be involved in that. I said no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't have capacity for that. Or, you know, I'm starting, you know, a law firm. I need a brand strategy. I know this is your thing, and then maybe I offer it as a you know, just a favor and I just do the job. And it burned the midnight oil and that metamorphosed into getting even more work, like I had friends you know, across the world actually calling in and going Tozin. Can you help with this pitch? Can you help with this project? And there was a great project. You know, do it at your pace, but we need to send something in in two weeks. I know that you have a nine to five year, but try and make some room for us. And I just kept thinking I can't. First of all, I can't continue like this. But secondly, if there is this much work already coming in and I'm not even requesting it. And this is where the advice comes in.

Speaker 1:

For people who are thinking of launching into entrepreneurship or starting a business of their own, first advice is stop and make a plan right. Make a simple plan. It doesn't have to be complex. You know, ask yourself what do I need coming in per month? You know what do I already have coming in per month. How do I replace that? Can I have a sort of simple plan that gets me to that, close enough to that number before I drop? You know, the nine to five or the current job that I have. What should be on the cards? A simple plan to transit from nine to five into that entrepreneurial world should be on the cards.

Speaker 1:

I mean, people advise you to have six months savings somewhere. You know I think that's useful if you can. It always sounds good on paper but you know, even if what you have is three months, four months saved somewhere, it makes a difference. Anyway, in my case, yes, I had some savings, but beyond that, I had a simple plan. I had listed places, people I could go to and say can I offer you this service? Either because I've done some work with them before or I knew them well enough to think I could, on twist them to be on my roster, at least to work for them.

Speaker 1:

So have a simple plan. So that's the first thing I would say. And then, secondly, I think it's always great to have support and I was quite happy and humbled that I had my friend offering to go into business with me and I thought, okay, we have each other to bounce back ideas back and forth and somewhere in there we can make things happen. We booked a couple of trips on the back of that and both trips and this was before I quit both trips yielded commercial work and so I went with that proof. I was more comfortable. You know, step into it.

Speaker 2:

I love that. There's two things that you say. I know that you're gonna tell us because you give me a summary juice and I really want to ask you a question. So, first of all, I think it was nice that, before you sealed the deal and make it your co-founder, you had this testing phase where you could actually see if together you are a match in heaven. And you figure, yes, we definitely are, because together we make things happen. We are very complimentary in terms of our skills and our approach to it.

Speaker 2:

But something that you've done and it's funny because I didn't do that when I first went to my first business, you already had a reputation for yourself. So I'm curious to know, in terms of how did you build that reputation to come to you? Because I think about my first business, I went completely very opposite of. I went from oil and gas to fashion and I didn't have that much strong reputation for someone to come to me. So I still had to do cold calling and direct outreach and so on. So I'm curious to know, in terms of how did you build that reputation for yourself before you even go as an entrepreneur?

Speaker 1:

I'll be remiss if I said I sat somewhere and thought I need to build a reputation and then start working a five year plan. No, and I think for me it was more. It came more naturally. I am the kind of person that likes to help and I think, on this point, actually, you and I actually share some qualities, because I know that one thing that you always value is saying I'm not going to go into a relationship requesting anything. I am going to go into a relationship proving my value, trying to help, and that's maybe the keyword here is help. Be the person that will help someone else, help an organization, help a startup, regardless of whether there is any commercial interest or not. Find space in your life to be kind. Find space in your life to be helpful. Find space in your life to make yourself useful to other people. So, whether it's in your social circles, whether it's in your religious circles, because it doesn't always have to look like nine to five Some of the greatest projects I ended up working on came from a relationship that maybe I nurtured in church or I nurtured in a social circle, and they went no, this guy is so good, you need to call him into our office.

Speaker 1:

As a matter of fact, I remember that one of the first big contracts that we got in Nigeria was for an oil and gas company, and our first introduction to that business was by someone that we had known years before in a very different context, in church actually and he just took a like into how I did, the things I did, and my partner actually also knew him, and so I thought these are the kind of guys I should call to come have a look here, and then you open the door and you let people figure themselves out. And I'm eternally grateful for those kind of opportunities, and actually in particular, to this gentleman that I referred to, who is now of blessed memory. He passed on not too long ago and yeah, so that's it. Make yourself useful.

Speaker 2:

I love you, tosini say like that's it. But a lot of people do not know how to build a relationship. You know that A lot of people just work for life and just and see yourself. They go into a relationship trying to get as much as possible and, as you say, it's the essence of our success is that, if I get something from it, but my first intention is like, are we able to connect? Am I able to help you? And then, naturally, when we are on another, am I get something directly from you or am I get something from somebody else, or am I interested in the right person? But it might seem natural for us, but I don't think everybody necessarily know how to do that very, very well. And I mean I see it as well from the number of messages that I receive via email on LinkedIn. They just go and boom and try to get direct and it doesn't work.

Speaker 2:

And I feel that there's a lot of people who still don't understand the essence of business. It's about relationships and when we get this, they will see how much easier your life is, your business is. But I think, alongside that, what you say is that we wonder why? How did this person get there. How did? This person did not as good as me, it doesn't matter. They were all good at building relationships with that person and that's what got them the job. And that's what I say. Business and life is not necessarily fair. It's about and I always say that at the end of the podcast summary I say business is a chess game. It's time for you to know how to play this game effectively.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely. And something that you said that I want to underscore is that, especially as you advance in your career, your technical skills are going to matter less and less. It wouldn't get to zero, but because you're good at it, you know good at design, good at brand creation, good at banking and finance. That's just a component of who you are. Are you a good person? Your character is really what starts to stand you out and set you apart.

Speaker 1:

Do people mention your name positively in the room? When you're not there, can people rely on you? So I mean, this takes me and maybe I be jumping around a little bit here, but it takes me to one of the tests that I do when we're hiring, especially for key roles. In fact, every role is that I say listen, we have to hire for a few things character, competence and resilience. I need to know that when we turn our back, this person can do the job, regardless of how good they are on paper. They have resilience, they have grit, they're going to stay there and make sure it gets done. Also, I need to know just simple integrity that when you say something, it's exactly as you said it. When you give a promise, I can go to bed because I know that you will do it Because if you then have an organization that's full of those kinds of people, then you will inevitably be successful.

Speaker 2:

Yes, love that. My favorite word is ownership. I think ownership is so powerful alongside what you just say that you can tell the difference if somebody would just do the job and somebody really care and I always say that you know a good example, like would your mom be proud of that? If you really have an idea, mom, don't present it to me, you know. So, yes, it's such a good way of looking at this. So, yes, so we are in entrepreneurship world and you're not fully. You fully started. How's it going? Any ups and downs or everything is going smoothly.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, look, entrepreneurship is about managing the ups and downs. It's like everything else in life you will get the valleys, you will also get the hills. So you need to know how to manage the valley moments and how to manage those top of the hill moments when you feel so exultant. You know you want a new pitch. It's a big contract. You know the money is flowing, everyone is happy, great.

Speaker 1:

Find yourself a moment to step back and take stock and understand that there's a component of you know, the mountain moments that's actually an imposter. By imposter I mean, it's natural, if you're good at what you do, you will get some wins. But also know, as the teenagers in my house will say, if you do something long enough, you'll also catch some L's. You'll get some losses, you know, and you have to be able to deal with the rough and the smooth. Is it, you know, going for 20 pitches and not winning any of them have been there. Is it you know, applying for a contract, going through all the stages, getting to the final stage where it's supposed to be just a formality, and actually not being called back? Is it actually getting to contract stage but then understanding that different organizations have different dynamics and somebody canning the project? You know, I've been there Is it looking at the operation expenses and realizing that you know, if you're not careful and if you don't skin the finances right this month, you might struggle to pay.

Speaker 1:

You know salaries, you know. But you have to understand that those moments are part of the journey. I love how and I can use an analogy from sports there's a gentleman the place basketball is a Nigerian Greek, yannis Adetokumbo. People would know him in the basketball world and it was asked by a reporter that you know, oh, this year you haven't scored a lot and you haven't won a lot as a team. How do you feel about that? Do you feel that you guys are starting to fail?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I remember the conversation.

Speaker 1:

I went to the reporter and he said you know this is part of the process. You know you're getting better every day. You know you catch some losses but you get your wins. And when people step back and they look at it, make sure that what they're looking at is someone who is resilient, strong and winning. The guy who wins is not the guy who never falls down. It's the guy who knows how to get up. You know and keep running.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and it's funny because people love to look at the at people. People who are the first to criticize really don't do much right, so like they keep themselves in that comfort zone. They're really good at being, you know, giving the criticism, but they're not actually the one who are doing it. And you know there's a beauty as well of being an entrepreneur that we're a bit mad individuals. But and I remember I was saying to a school founder of New India, kind of a punitive he was like if I knew how hard it would be, I would have never done it. But also that's what it means to be an entrepreneur is that you do it not knowing how difficult it will be. And that's the beauty of starting a business. It's beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Correct, absolutely, absolutely, and look if you do what you're doing well, the good times will come in and ultimately you'll get to a point where I call it steady state or, as you know, they call it business as usual where you have a steady roster of retained clients. You're maybe adding one or two, but actually I say there's still a danger there, especially if you look at it through the lens of where we are in the world in 2024, you can never for one moment rest on your laurels. If you're winning, you have to be asking yourself so what's around the corner? What's the next innovation? What is my competitive landscape doing? What is even happening with my comfortable clients? Because comfort is a sign of maturity or it could even be a sign of apathy.

Speaker 1:

We're fine with this guy as long as he keeps doing this level of work, and then some new guy comes into that role as he's now. They all have to go. I want to do things differently, but you will not pay attention to be able to pick up on that. So don't ever be caught napping. You always have to be, and maybe this gives a hint as to why I started a podcast called Ready. Next, you have to have one foot in the now and the other one in the next.

Speaker 2:

So what are you trying to teach people of your podcast? What's the of the why?

Speaker 1:

Right? It's a fantastic question. I don't think. For me, it's actually about teaching. It's about uncovering insights, and uncovering for spotlighting the fact that we're in a rapidly changing world, we're in a dynamic business environment. It's going to be like this for at least the next decade.

Speaker 1:

We have caught the sharp end of the fourth industrial revolution and, like all the other three revolutions before it, it's asking us not to look at the horse or the carriage but to ask ourselves where is the customer going, when is the attention going and where is the innovation happening?

Speaker 1:

And so the point of my podcast is to spotlight those things. Whether it's the fact that there are conversations with a North African country like Morocco to be able to provide solar electricity using some of its desert land to power a huge region in Africa and possibly Europe. Whether it's opening up the conversation about AI and talking about the first AI device that just got released about a month ago at CAS. Whether it's talking to disruptors and innovators like yourself about what they're doing in their domains, that's moving us towards what's coming next. The idea is to open up that spotlight and allow whether you're a young entry level person who's just starting their career, or you're a senior executive or you sit on boards. When you listen to my podcast, you must be a little bit smarter, you must be a little bit more in tune with the times and you must take away one or two actionable insights that says this is what I need to be doing to get to next.

Speaker 2:

Keep your mind open. I think beyond that, you don't play yourself so bad. I have to remind you. I also want to add up to your business. You are also the former executive director at Advertising Week Africa. I would like to know a little bit more about that. You've been a judge as well for DAS awards, which is big for anybody in the creative space as well. Co-founder obviously we talked about a board member at Republic Comm, so obviously that you add up to your repertoire. How is that contributing as well to your own personal growth? But I mean beyond that. I want to come back to Advertising Week Africa. What role as why did you play with this?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think I can start there. Actually, advertising Week Africa is an amazing platform. I was built lovingly and carefully by a man. I have a lot of respect for Lord Matt Schechner, who is now I think he's now the chair of Advertising Week, and his amazing team, lance, who runs the whole ship. I think he's the CEO and the global president of Advertising Week. They've done an amazing job building the world's largest advertising platform Over a two-decade period, and it took a lot to get this off the ground.

Speaker 1:

It started in New York about two decades ago and the idea was to answer the question where can we have a big enough tent to have the most substantial, relevant and groundbreaking conversations about the creative and technology industries? And so they founded Advertising Week. Now what it is is that they host a week. I think in some countries it's three days, or in some it's even two days, depending on the maturity of the country or of the region, because it's big enough. It's a regional event. So New York, for instance, hosts North America, and then you have the one in Europe I think I believe you attended last year, I hope Europe, and it's based here in London. You have one in Tokyo, japan. For Asia, you have APEC that's hosted in Australia, you have one in Latin America that's hosted in Mexico, and one year, I think, maybe about four or five years ago, we looked at it and we realized that we didn't have this kind of platform in Africa and the question we thought to answer was can we partner and bring Advertising Week over to Africa and give ourselves a cross-regional platform where the guys from North, east, west and South Africa can congregate and have fantastic conversations about the future of our industry? But it goes beyond conversations. There's also a whole experiential side to it. There's eventing, there's music, there's entertainment. You always meet one or two A-list stars during Advertising Week. It's a heady mix of content which is, at the heart of it, entertainment, and so just striking the gear up a notch and exciting the industry about what is coming next.

Speaker 1:

One of my proudest moments was early last year I think it was February us launching in South Africa. I'm happy to have played a small part. I spent the bulk of the past five years living out of briefcases across Africa, north America, europe, here in the UK In fact, at some point I think my family when they see me at the door they're like oh, you're back. But it was fun and exciting to build in new places in Africa and I also love traveling our continent Africa. You discover such depth of creativity, diversity and energy, energy, energy everywhere you go.

Speaker 1:

And so we kicked off last year in Johannesburg actually, and had to take to Trevon Lovu and the team at Black River for executing greatly on that vision and brought together the creative industry. And I was actually shocked because what we thought was that it was going to be a really small event. Lucky that we booked a space with enough capacity just in case it overflowed and it did overflow. The young people showed up in their droves and they were so clued on, they were excited about every session and then we had a sprinkling of A-listers. Most notable was Kevin Hart, who gave his time and energy and effort and also his resources to the continent in developing creative talent. It was amazing. So I think that's Advertising Week, from being on the board and being involved and being a really small part in what is now a big enterprise.

Speaker 1:

Republicum is an integrated, 360-degree marketing network that offers complementary services, about five or six businesses under its tables. We do creative and advertising, we do content, we do sports marketing, we do experiential marketing, we do storytelling, and on and on and on. It's a beautiful network to be part of and I'm quite humbled to be on the board helping to shape how executives look at the strategy for their organizations within the network, but also where we go next in terms of opportunities on the continent, whether it's acquisitions, whether it's mergers, whether it's partnerships and just growing that stable. And it's great.

Speaker 1:

And here is something for the entrepreneur out there. You are starting. You've got a very tiny idea but that you believe very strongly in. Don't Second guess yourself. It will all make sense, it will all add up. I mean, I am sitting here talking to the amazing Flavilla Fongang who's built this groundswell of community around black talent, and you've done so many things, so many remarkable things in the creative industry. I wouldn't be here if I didn't take the first step towards entrepreneurship. So I have a lot to thank my mentors, my friends, partners and colleagues who've been with me on the journey to getting me here.

Speaker 2:

And I think one thing that you say about advertising we can think that we always underplay how much greatness comes from Africa and sometimes what they only need is an opportunity to shine. And it's crazy to think that they will do advertising work in every country but no thing about Africa. And yeah, I think it's. I'm glad that you were so involved in this and made it happen. It's time that we change the narrative about the opportunities. We're only growing continent, it is Africa, so we want to see more opportunities flowing across continents and fueling the opportunities that sits in Africa. My last question is my favorite question is your vision of the future. What is the vision of the future looks like for Tosin?

Speaker 1:

That's a beautiful question, and I think it's one that really fills me with excitement. I think that the future is being written as we speak. I believe that we've entered the golden age of technology, of automation, actually, and we all need to go back to learn and to relearn. I think, for me, what excites me the most is that I know that, with all of the talk around AI and new tech, frontier tech taking people's jobs, nobody's seeking anyone's jobs. What is going to happen is that this will provide the much needed impetus and augmentation to your skills and your talents, and I think anyone who's trying to start a business now should go fully for it. Of course, like I said earlier, with a plan in place, but you will have alongside you, if you're a team of two or three, or four or eight, you will now have technology sitting as your co-pilot, multiplying exponentially your productivity, and, if you're able to actually harness that, the sky is the limit. Now I think that we're at a time when businesses need to form a new relationship between technology and talent as well. Established businesses need to start to realize that the playing field has changed. Whilst you are seeking talent, you should also reopen your minds to not be caught up in the dinosaur era. We know of companies when people ask about what happened to Kodak, for instance. There was a time that Kodak was synonymous with photography, but what happened to them? They thought they had arrived, they thought they had the best innovation, they thought they would never be off stage. They did not foresee a time when the camera on your phones would be better than that in those big boxes that they produced and they would have led that change. So I think what we need to do now with this democratizing force of technology means that we have to embrace it as an enabler and an influencer. We have to be comfortable empowering the people in our companies to become closer to a lot of this new tech.

Speaker 1:

It's not going to be new for long. It's going to be just the way it's done. You're not going to hear of AI marketing or AI design. You're just going to hear design, and what will happen is AI will just be implicit, just like digital has become implicit, and I think that's where we're going. That's what excites me. I also am excited that creativity and storytelling will not disappear. We are going to get to a point where it will just be enhanced. And then I'm excited about a little thing I'm doing with AI at the moment, where it's still early, it's still in stealth mode, but I'm building a new business around the intersection of technology and the built environments and the questions that we're trying to answer is can we turn the rental and the market for home ownership? Can we turn it on its head, make the process easier, seamless, faster, more effective for all of the key stakeholders the agents, the land owners, the authorities, government and, of course, most importantly, for the buyer or renter? Can we make that seamless? And we're employing AI and technology to do that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, can I add one more thing to your views?

Speaker 2:

And I think that this is also the beginning of the value of imperfection, of what makes us human, because one thing we've heard about the recent technology and what they capable of doing, which is close to perfection and, even better, of what humans can create. I remember giving a keynote last year on two data researchers on creativity and I said that everybody should feel like Tony Stark. I mean anybody who's a Marvel fan who know that Tony Stark is Iron man, but the way he created it was always with Jarvis. So he is the brain and Jarvis is there to support and align with his vision, to be able to improve his creativity. And I think what humans are not known for being good at is perfection. And I think that we will value even more the imperfection of what makes us human and that's also a reason for us to differentiate. But, as you say, jarvis, this is going, whether we like it or not, and it's important to recognize how we can tap into this instead of rejecting it and tapping on the floor.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I mean, I couldn't have said it better. We need to see that we are human and in our quest for perfection, we still embrace our flaws and our imperfections. And the question shouldn't really be oh, how can we get faster, how can we get better at everything, how can everything arrive in one second? No, some things still need to be slow, like enjoying fine wine. Fine dining Still needs to be slow and enjoyable. We still want to take in the experiences of sitting at the beach and enjoying the sunset. We are human and as we take further strides into this new industrial revolution, what we'll obtain is we will see people unsubscribing from perfection and wanting to stay human. That in itself is an entire business model and framework, but I agree completely with you.

Speaker 2:

It was such a pleasure to have you. I knew that it was meant to be and it was a great conversation. It was such a good time and we could have spoken for more than that, and we want to know more about you. What's the best way to stay connected and maybe ask for more in business who knows? Or find more about your podcast as well?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. You can reach me on any of those platforms. Ready Next is the name of the podcast. If you search for it on any good podcast outlet, whether it's Google, apple or Spotify, you'll find it. You can also check out our business at imageantimecom. And I'm always on LinkedIn, linkedincom. Forward slash in, forward slash or Lutusyn. And I'll end with my favorite Nelson Mandela quote it is always impossible until it is done. Thanks for having me, mila.

Speaker 2:

Love, love, love. I could have not said it better. What a nice way to close this podcast For all our listeners. I hope that you enjoy this episode. Remember, under the power of creativity, the power of value, the power of staying curious and being very sure it's anything that you undertake, and don't be afraid to be imperfect. This is part of who we are. This is part of what makes us human. Embrace the power of technology that we have at our disposal. Never be too comfortable so you miss all the opportunities and become irrelevant. So this is Black Rice Podcast, and remember this is a chess game and it's time for you to win the game. See you soon.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Rice. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit theblackricecom to find out more. This is Black Rice, where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising.