Black Rise

How to become a MD at Goldman Sachs as Black Man - From Nigeria to Italy and Now the UK: With Emmanuel Adenitire

• Black Rise • Season 1 • Episode 18

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Embark on a transformative odyssey with Emmanuel Adenitire, exploring the fabric of identity and the milestones of a career that transcends borders. As your host Flavilla Fongang, I'm delighted to share the remarkable tale of Emmanuel's rise from his roots in Nigeria, through cultural tapestries of Italy, to the apex of finance in the UK. His story is not just one of professional growth but a nuanced narrative of cultural adaptation, the allure of curiosity, and the profound impact of a stable family foundation on personal evolution.

Navigating the labyrinth of the corporate world can be as much about the bridges you build as the skills you possess. Through Emmanuel's lens, we gain invaluable insights into the role of likeability, the art of connecting in the workplace, and how genuine curiosity can serve as a catalyst for career advancement. His progression from a startup enthusiast to a managing director at Goldman Sachs is a masterclass in aligning one's talents with the evolving demands of the job market, a journey marked by strategic pivots and the embrace of mentorship and internal advocacy.

This episode isn't merely a narrative; it's a trove of strategic wisdom for anyone aspiring to scale the heights of their profession. Emmanuel illuminates the subtleties of fostering company culture, the significance of innovation, and the potent influence of long-term vision in shaping one's career trajectory. Join us in unraveling how a confluence of ambition, strategic thought, and the power of internal sponsors can propel you to new professional summits, as exemplified by Emmanuel's inspiring ascent within the dynamic realm of finance.

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Speaker 1:

So my recommendation to all audiences long-term decisions never rush them. Take your time to really ensure that you are thinking strategically about them. Short-term decisions you could make those decisions at any time.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Black rice podcast. You'll get a way to inspiring conversation with Black Rem de la Creme of Black talent, who are leaders of seven figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. I'm your host, flavilla Fongang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on this journey. Black rice isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our mission is to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. We strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackricecom to find out more.

Speaker 2:

Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Black rice podcast. I'm super excited to have you here. If you made a commitment, to listen every week means that you are serious about your success, but also inspired by all the amazing stories of all the amazing Black leaders who have achieved it. Black rice is here to support you connect, build and so we can go together. And part of that part of growing is about also learning from people who've made it, so you don't have to figure all it out on your own, but also realize that you don't have to let anything place against you, where you can use your strength and your weaknesses to achieve success. So today I'm joined by a very amazing individual and we're going to learn about his fantastic story. We heard about the story of Claire Ashley on one of the previous episodes on the podcast, who is a manager director at Goldman Sachs.

Speaker 2:

We have another Black managing director at Goldman Sachs. This time is Emmanuel. Adenityway is an engineering managing director with Goldman Sachs global banking and market so GBM, to say shortly. His team is responsible for pre-trade coating tools used by GBM sales and traders for trading various fixed standardized flow projects. Sounds very complicated, but we're going to. I'm sure that he's going to be able to explain that in a simple manner, because it's definitely not my language. He's a member of the company's firm white Black Network Steering Committee and co-head of the Goldman Sachs EMEA Black Engineers Network. There's a lot to learn about his story, he said in such a short bio, but I'm sure that Emmanuel has such a fantastic story and I'm so excited to bring you with me today, emmanuel. How are you?

Speaker 1:

Oh fine, it's really an honor and a privilege to be on this podcast.

Speaker 2:

You know we're saying offline before we got into the recording that you are so humble. I was looking. People really want to give you a bio. It's about two page long and you can put one paragraph just a lot about you and your character. I know that you didn't get to where you are by accident, but I feel like we need to start from the beginning and I love to understand the story of where you grew up. What type of child were you, what kind of family did you live in and what kind of environment? What are people that inspire you or influence you from a young age?

Speaker 1:

Sure, I was born in Nigeria, I grew up in Nigeria until I was nine and then I moved to Italy, and so most of my childhood were actually in Italy. So I did my the last day of my primary school. My secondary school, my first degree, was in Italy. I'm the University of Bologna, and then I moved to the UK in 2007.

Speaker 2:

Did you speak Italian as?

Speaker 1:

I'm presuming I speak Italian as well. I then moved in 2007 to the UK to pursue my master's degree at the University of Birmingham, and so, after obtaining the degree, it was a really new experience, very different from Italy. I moved to London to work in small startups within the financial service.

Speaker 2:

We're jumping chapters because I want to know, in terms of you and your upbringing, are you a single child and also growing up in France? I'm born in France, so my journey to being black French is definitely different from you being normally born Nigerian but then moving to Italy. What are the things that you face and maybe you want to prepare for?

Speaker 1:

So in Nigeria I have two siblings. My parents are actually pastors of the church and so my dad in 88 actually moved to Italy to pursue as a missionary and to really start up a church, and my mom then joined in numbers of years after and then we joined in 1996. So that's a very young age. It was a very different culture compared to two years. I think you could think about Italy as in the 80s or when my dad moved there there were not a lot of black peoples and so the country was really trying to readjust and really reeducate itself and when I joined it was also still in that process of really understanding how to really incorporate a lot of these new faces and new cultures.

Speaker 1:

I would say my childhood was sort of a bit of a mix of story, Obviously discovering yourself as a young black person in a country where you're learning the language, you are still understanding who you are, your identity as a person. And in this mix of okay, am I in Nigerian? Am I an Italian? How should I really approach my friends? What's my culture? How do I really see myself in all that complexity, it was really quite inspiring to having that family stability.

Speaker 1:

I think my parents were certainly a point of reference for me, and so it was still difficult to really navigate and also the hopes and aspirations that you would want to have. My parents obviously have been pastors. It's not one of those jobs that is like a nine to five. You are really trying to build a community, help in a community, and in a way, it wasn't the kind of jobs that you can just say, okay, let me put my kids to holiday two months over the summer. So there were a lot of things that you had to really discover, because there's what they were discovering alongside us on how to build a family, and it wasn't really. They didn't have examples before them of how to really do that within a foreign country. When your father came to Italy, there was nobody to welcome you.

Speaker 1:

So he went by himself, he went by himself, and so that in itself, was a brave move because you had three children under the age of four at that time and my mom obviously has been with us, and so there were a lot of unknowns, there were a lot of different things that we were all discovering as a family and so like especially when you're at that age of like zero to four, five or six, oftentimes you can see appearing every once or twice a year. So you had that reference of this is my father from a picture, but you were not necessarily every day with him, and so there was also the challenge of understanding the dynamics of the family in itself, but it's not unique to me. A lot of people that have migrated to other countries faced a similar challenge, but it was interesting.

Speaker 2:

But you're saying that your father was not just your father, it was more for other people as well, so you had to share that time and know that you're not going to have him all the time, and but his presence was still there. So when you moved to Italy you were still pretty much young, so you say you were under four years old, so you didn't have to.

Speaker 1:

No, I was nine when I was nine.

Speaker 2:

Nine years old, did you witness when you were in Africa. You're just a human. Nobody would mind that you're black. So I'm curious in terms of when we think about countries where Italy is also known for certain perception around the black individuals. Is it something that you face? And a question in terms of how did you deal with it if you faced a cyber situation and how did your parents protect you as well? Dealing with people who are not accustomed to seeing people like you? Yeah, I think it's.

Speaker 1:

We definitely are to navigate it, certainly as kids because my parent also was still also is like now. As a parent, like you are discovering things on the fly, especially. You know if your grandparents are there, they can share some practices and so on, but when you're in the foreign countries, they have not ever dealt with their kids or with other kids having challenges at school in a completely different culture. They didn't go to school in that country. So it was all a set of discovery that we were all doing as a family. They obviously tried to help to the extent at which they could, but it was almost more on the children to understand how to navigate on the day to day, even just relating with kids within the class I would say the kids again. My fellow colleagues at school they were again.

Speaker 1:

It's a mixed baggage, right, just like you have it in any country. You have people that are more supportive and tolerant. Some people will have some more extreme views of things, but I would say it never really was so visible and I would say I've had a very good group of friends that have really been extremely supportive. I'll give you a simple example. When I got married 11 years ago, all my Italian friends actually came to the UK for my StarkDue. They organized the StarkDue, they took me out. They really did a lot of great things. The gift for my wedding was more, the biggest gift was actually from that group of people, of friends. So they have a very personal relationship and a very deep and sincere relationship and I think that's really the culture you see in a very Mediterranean country like Italy.

Speaker 1:

But again, those challenges I've had to again discover myself and really understand who are you, what do you stand for, what are your values, what do you want to become? And how can I be able to see a reference of people that have really succeeded? Because again, sometimes in that setup there are also limitations that are being imposed indirectly and directly at the same time as well. So a simple example is it's difficult to see a black person in the environment, working in an office, doing well, being able to buy a house, so basic things that in the UK most black people don't face. There is still a bit of a journey and the reason why is a lot of black people and I'm obviously generalizing in this case often maybe it's more specific to Africans or in the countries they see some of those countries like Italy, as a stop cap to maybe or coming to the UK or going back to the home country after like 10 years, so they never really settled properly but also because the opportunities oftentimes are just not there.

Speaker 2:

What you say is so right. It's exactly that. Apparence came to Europe with the idea that they will go back and they didn't see the need to invest on black people because that was just a temporary solution, and this is absolutely the reason why they probably didn't jump on the property ladder when it was the right time because I'm just here temporarily, I will go back home anyway and therefore didn't necessarily invest. This is actually a true fact that I agree with you.

Speaker 2:

People always expect that you come from Nigeria, you go to a New European country, that you're going to face a lot of hate and whatsoever. But what I love from your story is that it actually was a positive experience where those friends and those relationships have maintained for years, and I guess it's a true testament that sometimes there's beauty in that optimism, in seeing the best in people. There's always good and bad in every situation and I think it's important to just understand that there are always people who have a narrow minded way of living and others who are just here. Obviously, it's a great person that I would love to be connected with and to this day, as you say, they came to you waiting years ago, a decade ago. That's just a testament that you maintain. I can imagine when you go to Italy, people will be surprised when they see you speaking. It's Italian.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it surprises a lot of people here as well, Like when I see an Italian or someone they don't often expect a black person to be speaking Italian and be very accustomed, but I love the Italian culture.

Speaker 1:

It's one of those places that again, maybe just to contrast it to you, it's more of a balanced lifestyle, like, yeah, I feel like we're walking very hard, it's a very fast-paced. In Italy, at least I can talk of the city, parliament where I was in August. The city is completely dead because everybody's going on holiday, everybody's really enjoying their break. So it's a slightly different culture and I think that mix of the Nigerian, the Italian, the UK provides that sort of perspective of you shouldn't really settle for only one way of thinking and really should explore different cultures. Like one culture that I would like to really be able to experience is maybe the Japanese culture. It's also in that very different culture.

Speaker 1:

It's a lot more based on respect, cleanliness, and really it's slightly another aspect that I feel aligns to things that I want to really do from a person and my personality, and so it's one of those things that I think just taking different things from all these cultures are very important.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think also the fact that your parents put you into different environments very soon. So you grew up with that normal interest and again making an assumption that this is why I always say to people travel as much as you can. And I'm like here's why I love to go to cultures where I'm not accustomed to. So somebody went to Saudi. I thought it was just a fantastic experience. The first time I went to the south of the Middle East, against something like even Africa. People think Africa has a whole. Go to Nigeria, ghana, go to Kenya a completely different culture, yes, and all of these things are just so beautiful. It's funny you talk about the Italian culture when you think about the economy. It's not doing so great, is it? So against something. There is some balance into this.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree, I think the Italian culture, a lot of this of Mediterranean countries, is and I'm not saying this in any negative way, but it's just more of a fact they have a very dated history and oftentimes they're still carrying that perception of okay, we have, we want, the Roman Empire, we did a lot of great things. We have a very deep culture and in a way, it's difficult to really project forward and be a bit more on board, to really be the ones to really break the barrier for the next evolution of what is happening in the digital space and in other areas. So I saw the contrast in coming year because the way in which you get educated here it's a lot more practical. You have more internship Now. You see a lot of more apprenticeship scheme where people can do university and they can be able to work at the same time.

Speaker 1:

In Italy I did a three-year degree. I didn't have any work experience during that period. It's just a very different ways and different style of engaging and a lot of companies are small to medium. You don't have, like, large ones. Again, there are, but not as many as I've seen. Here in the UK, Like in Goldman, we recruit at least a thousand graduates a year Globally. Those numbers just don't exist in many of the complaints because they are more small to medium complaints typically.

Speaker 2:

So you decided to live a peaceful life of Italy, to come to London. What was it who influenced you? Or was it just you and the person's decision? And yeah, how did that happen?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So my younger brother a very smart person wanted to study in Birmingham. My sister also previously did a school here in the UK and so we thought, okay, the three of us let's actually attempt to extend our studies. My younger brother was starting his under degree in law. I wanted to pursue a master's in information. More on the web, given at that time the web was becoming more prevalent More on how do you build technology really centered around the web. My sister is in human resources, so she wanted to pursue a master on that, so we really embarked on that. Coincidentally, my wife was or my girlfriend at that time was also in the UK, but she was very close friends to my sister and she came on an holiday in Italy, so that's how I got to know her. We didn't have any deep relationship at that time and so I was incentivized and again, when I moved to do my master's, we were always in contact. She was in London, I was in Birmingham.

Speaker 2:

I like how you say incentivized.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, when it is just really aligned. I enjoyed Birmingham, even though the weather was not maybe the best I know that's all Lightning but it was a very peaceful, quiet city. So things aligned and it was a good experience Seeing that transition from Italy and how things work in the UK.

Speaker 2:

And then so how was you entering to the real world? What was your first real?

Speaker 1:

role. I came to the UK in September of 2007. And one of the things I realized at that time was you needed to apply very quickly to get into a graduate scheme, and so I realized that around November, december, and so I started really applying. I applied to more than 100 jobs. I just kept applying, applying, applying, and it got to a point where one of the recruiters his name is Adam Sales was just seeing my CV and I think he just said, look, this guy needs to stop, and he actually called me, gave me some feedback on how to really readjust my CV. I sent that back to him. He put me forward for a role.

Speaker 1:

It was a small complaint a startup in the city called Coppedon. A very small complaint. I went to do the interview. The CEO at that time was in shorts, in slippers, in shirts. I was also there that I was thinking okay, I've made a mistake here interviewed me and they hired me on the, on the spot, and then I was able to finish my degree and then started with them. It was probably the most impactful experience that I've had, because within 20 years, working with people that are 15, 20 years experience and you are just a graduate and I had my manager incredible manager and myself working on UI user interface for the web solution that we were trying to build, and the gap was just huge. Because I was a graduate, I had my manager and between the two of us had to build everything that related to what the end user would see for those applications. So the application in this case was a white laboring trading platform the financial institution could use for their clients. So it was more of a technology solution for trading, in this case in numbers of products, and they could white label it, and white label simply means putting their own brand to its logo color. They could customize it and then client could be embodied on it. It was just a great experience learned from all those great people.

Speaker 1:

And then the financial crisis. We lost the numbers of clients. The firm really pivoted. They wanted to pivot to gaming because we lost so many clients and Facebook at that time was really developing a lot of apps that you could really embed from a gaming perspective. So they wanted to pivot it almost to like a digital gaming solution to educate people about trading. I felt to myself it's interesting, but I don't think I'm really aligned to the gaming industry or my interest was more aligned to the financial sector, and so I took a job and started contracting in backless after 20 years of experience, and so that was how I was able to transition from a small company of 10 to 15 people to a huge, huge firm like backless.

Speaker 2:

Can I also ask you a question? I wanted to know, as you said yourself, you applied to so many CVs and you said you've seen so many times and you kept getting rejection what made the difference? And also in terms of the feedback that you got from the recruiter people who are there saying I'm applying, I'm not getting it through what do you think made the difference?

Speaker 1:

What made the difference is, whenever you're preparing your CV, remember that it's not for you, it's for the person reading the CV, and so the more you make it simple, the more people can understand what you do and, in a way, as a graduate, you don't need more than one page that describes what you have done, what your skills and strengths and who are you as a person. People want to know what your hobbies are if you don't have any work experience, what you're passionate about, because ultimately, people want to see, can I work with this person? And so people always project it to themselves, and so people that do well in presenting their CV optimize for that particular outcome.

Speaker 2:

As we continue this engaging conversation, remember that Black Rise is more than just a podcast. Where dynamic platform, where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with black professionals, entrepreneurs and black owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where black excellence flies globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five star review on iTunes. That's very true.

Speaker 2:

I think people often undervalve the importance of likeability. You know you can wait on CV, but if I'm coming and here is me taking my position as an employer, if I see what goes through my mind, that would I want to put you in front of my clients, such as Google, accenture or Google. Would I feel that you will get along with everybody in the team? And again, a different background and so on. That's the thing that people sometimes understand that likeability is universal. Anybody can have it and again, this is important because, no matter what your background, if you are a lackable person, people would disregard all the preconceived ideas that they have about your kind. If it's a terrible way of saying it that people haven't 100% like.

Speaker 1:

even if you may be the most talented person and if your manager doesn't feel like he can work with you, they have no incentive of really harming you. And so that's one of the key licenses Just to ensure that your CV is not for you, it's for the person within it, and show that you come across and show what you like, what are your interests, but also, to your point, be a likeable person, and that is transferable to any degree in life. Right, because those things are unchangeable characteristics of individuals that people want to work with.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think it's an important skills, especially when you are a minority, whether from a gender perspective, from a ethnicity perspective, to really tap into that. And again, something I'm opening the conversation more as a statement from a point of view of you think oh my gosh, do I need to coach switch and lose myself in the process? What I would say people think that it's not about coach switching. It's about adaptability, finding a way to help someone on different. And also comes back to how you're feeding your curiosity.

Speaker 2:

I've always been a curious person, like you. I've been lucky that I've done my career, allowed me to travel, so I've been to places that I probably would have never paid to go to. But I'm feeling that I can speak to someone who is from the Middle East, who's dressing all the. You know the who's, I've come from that or I can say that and again, there's so many ways. Food is definitely one way to connect with people of so many you know from all sorts of backgrounds, but I think sometimes you forget the importance of cultivating curiosity. It's outside, you know your own and there are blinds of people listening to this, whether you're black, white, yellow, green. How much are you curious about other people who do not look like you. I mean, or just art, or just universal language that goes beyond just words, that will help you become a likable person. People say, oh, this person is interesting, I want to be around that person.

Speaker 1:

Completely agree and I would say this like and this may sound to be controversial is oftentimes the perception that we get from the media on, even like the middle list or some of these very, very deep cultures that are very dissimilar oftentimes to us, obviously become a blocker for us to actually engage and learn and really discover and I feel like that's one of the things that we, as Black people, also need to be very conscious of is okay, if this person has a view of me, what can I do to actually showcase who am I and what is my culture in such a way that I can educate them, as opposed to say, okay, this person thinks X, y, z, right, then I just become upset because his ignorance about who am I and he has some preconceived. I think there's always a lesson that we can be able to teach and really educating people. Obviously, not everybody will want to be educated, but I think it's important, even as a first step, to really aim to do that, because we can all learn from each other, even in our differences of opinions.

Speaker 2:

Definitely love that, mako. Should I go back to your career? Have you always been in finance? Because now you went from obviously the first startup in fintech technically, then now you're a Barclays. What was your next move after that, and also the journey from becoming an employee to being a contractor? I think probably more for tax purposes than if I'm wrong. But yes, what has been the rest of your?

Speaker 1:

journey. So I was in Barclays for almost three years as a contractor, worked in a few projects within Barclays as well, actually, and within the fixed sales space. I was a contractor there. I loved it. I was given that level of flexibility to really still be able to work as a contractor on my own terms. And then I had the opportunity of finding a role in Goldman. I actually did two interviews for two different teams on the same day. One went horribly wrong and one was very good, but they didn't have a role the one that went well at that time and so they actually called me back after a few months as a new role at Melch.

Speaker 2:

Can you ask you what did it go wrong If you're investing in the company? What did it go wrong?

Speaker 1:

Sure, I was not just prepared technically to the level that they wanted and it was also a reflection of my experience at that time. I would say I was being interviewed by people obviously that 15, 20 years experience. They had a vast set of criteria of what they wanted and my skills was just not aligned at that time to those things. And again, it's maybe also part of the journey of going from a small startup to a big firm. I was in that big firm as a contractor, so with the expectation that you know everything, but again, you don't know everything, even though you are well versed in many things, starting from a startup. So those things did not go well. But the only interview went well because it was more aligned to my skill set and an area that I was well versed and I could really own myself as I did a lot of things in that space. They felt I could add a lot of value and give them actually some fresh perspective as part of that, and so I then joined Goldman in 2014.

Speaker 2:

I think, depending on where you're going, obviously it's good to know what is expecting from you and sometimes maybe it's not the right time for this opportunity.

Speaker 2:

But I think alongside that, depending on what you have in front of you, they might actually see the value of you having this startup experience, a different experience to bring you to a business and giving you a fresh perspective, where sometimes you go into an employer who has to do exactly this, this, this, there's nothing. I think it's important to understand where the company is at and what you're going to get from them, because a lot of people sometimes not always, but sometimes people would not ask enough to understand the vision of the business, why you can contribute to it and therefore, if the company is not ready to change, then that's the land where you want to be. Or if you're a person who is hungry for more, to learn and contribute, that's where there's a perfect alignment and I think that's something that people can learn from it. But I don't even talk about Goldman Sachs right now in support, I think, people addressing the politics of big companies. I'm curious if you can also address that. But obviously let's focus on your career.

Speaker 1:

Sure, I'll touch on that as well. But one thing to actually mention, maybe on the point that you just raised this again, going back to your CV is not for you and it's for the person receiving it. When you're doing an interview and maybe this will resonate with many of the listeners you are there to convince in numbers of people, and primarily the hiring manager, that you can really be able to fit in well within their team, and they are setting different criteria that for the same frame, different managers we want. In this particular case, the interview that did not go well, the manager was a very, very technical person, so his criteria was very, very different. In the other interview as well, was very, very technical, but it was more aligned to the skill sets and my experience.

Speaker 1:

Whereas these are the manager, the skill sets that he was more interested in, I was still developing it, and so, in a way, as part of the preparation for an interview, it's important to understand who is this person that I'm interviewing for.

Speaker 1:

What do they care about? Right, and, in a way, what are they looking for? Looking at the job spec in itself and ensuring that you're crossing and really preparing yourself to every of the lines that has been put there is important because that is what they want to recruit for, and so there will be gaps in your CV that doesn't match necessarily what they're looking for. The question is are you able to really prepare and really train yourself to really have somewhere close to like 80% or more so that you maximize your chance for success in that way? So that's one of the things I've learned again through the course of my career, because I recruit for different positions and you will see the difference when someone is optimizing for their chances of success and when someone is just coming casually for an interview and they're just treating the job as one more job that they are interviewing for 100%.

Speaker 2:

There's one question I always like to ask people where do you see yourself in the business? And you can see how ambitious they are as well, because everybody can answer questions for chat, dbt or pre-answer. But I think something more personal in terms of their ambition tells you a lot about them. So, go man Saks, what was your first position at Go man Saks?

Speaker 1:

So I was brought in in this new team. It was a core team that was meant to help the firm transition more towards the web, so we had a lot of desktop application and so in that transition towards the web, but more so providing the technical expertise. In this case I was one of a UI developer. I did a lot of things in Barclays, a lot of things in that startup and so really providing the largest and some architectural role in how we shape some of the projects.

Speaker 2:

In terms of the timeframe what year was that?

Speaker 1:

So that was in 2014,. Yeah, so 2014,. So 10 years ago. So I was brought in more as a consultant to help in that transition. And again, thinking about culture and this is where culture plays a role Go man has a very unique kind of culture and it's a very lean organization.

Speaker 1:

Everybody has to carry their weight and also they invest heavily in their people. And so I realized, as a contractor, yes, I may be training and helping all these people, but within six to one year, my role will be very different, because these are all smart people. They will come up to speed in understanding what has been taught and they will be telling me in the next six to one year what I should be doing, because they really empower people to take more ownership, even as a very junior level. And so I thought to myself do I see myself in this place? Do I feel like I have a trajectory of growth? And I thought to myself I will actually be the one to offer if I can transition to a permanent staff and I engage with a manager at that time. And that option was made available.

Speaker 2:

So I wanna ask a question, because what you say is very important, and I think this is your third role and you've been at Go man Sex for 10 years, so there's some beautiful magic into this, and you said that they invest very much in their people. When you talk about investment, are you talking about training? Are you talking about they give people a career path? Are you talking about they give you goodies? They give you snacks in the office? What is the investment people are looking for that makes you yes, this is the place for me to stay, because I've seen this. You know the first person at Go man Sex I know I've been here for a long time. Again, it's so much power. Being around intelligent people Makes me oof. I like this energy. What is that magical culture that Go man Sex has that keep you forever?

Speaker 1:

So a couple of things. One is there is a culture of excellence. Decisions are made very quickly and what I mean? Investing in people. They invest in people by giving them responsibility.

Speaker 1:

So, like your simple first year analyst will be engaging with the business directly, will be writing requirements, will be writing codes, writing tests, so you'll find that within two or three years they have a rounded knowledge of what they have to do to really drive and maximize business impact. And so in my time in Berkeley it's great people, but the setup was just much different. You had a lot of well-defined roles, whereas in Go man there are a number of defined roles, but it's a lot more fluid. So you end up doing a bit of everything.

Speaker 1:

I would say it's very unusual for a company to be speaking for a first year graduate, to be speaking directly with traders, writing down requirements, implementing that, and your manager is not always being the intermediary, so that obviously they jump in and step in to really shape more broadly the roadmap or, for certain delivery, they empower people on that. And then obviously the firm provides a lot of benefits, pension being one. We have a gym, we have people that have kids, we have childcare that is free for up to 25 days a year. So it's all rounded. Depending on your role, you may work longer hours. The firm requires you to come on site to work five days a day, but it's mostly really due to that culture. They really want to have people working together, be more connected, be very good-driven and really be very focused on really hard in value in those regards.

Speaker 2:

Yes, what you say is so important. Empowering your people gives them so much drive to want to work. And also, if you are supporting, I think sometimes companies don't understand or maybe may not be there yet to be able to provide all these benefits, and especially if you are big companies, this should not even be an option to do so. But even for the smaller companies, what can you do now to support your employees beyond just giving them a great place to work? But empowerment and impact. It's such a kitchen. When you say I can see that I am matter. Let me just say this I can see that I'm not just one element in this massive company. I am more than that. I can see that my single action cannot impact, and so on. So if you want to work well as an unity, it will impact on the business. That's really brilliant.

Speaker 1:

Again, no organization is perfect and there are always prones and cunts. So I'll say there is a unique culture in Goldman and it's been written. Numbers of book has been written on it. The interesting thing is that when I was doing my masters in Birmingham, I actually read a book on the culture of Goldman and that was one of the things that really sparked my curiosity to really aim to work at some point in Goldman. So yeah, that happened after numbers of years, but that was one of the things that really sparked my interest.

Speaker 2:

But you know, what you just say is so important setting a vision, setting a goal, having very high ambition. I mean, like you are now a managing director, which is not a small thing to have achieved. But I think sometimes people say you have to be crazy. And I see that I'm crazy and moving you to say you know what? I'm going to work at Goldman Sachs, I'm going to be working with BBC. It's like, yeah, I will, and it may happen. And it's like, okay, well, next time I want to have a time I got it. But I think you have to have this very bold ambition.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And I think there are some wishes that you say I want to go to Japan, I want to be, to do this. You know I want to be, but nothing is impossible if you just create your own limitation in your mind. And it's good to figure out the path, because the difference between the dreamers and the achievers is that the dreamers only dreamer ability achievers actually do the work. You know it's just about. Hey, I want that. Are you working towards this right, isn't it Emmanuel?

Speaker 1:

Completely agree. And I think the one thing and I've seen this again being very connected to the network or the Black and Geo network is we engage with a lot of students. Right, we are very keen to really get as many people to really apply. Oftentimes people just think it's not possible to get to a place like Goldman, and so you often find people. They just don't apply. And so and why? Because they're setting themselves on targets of companies that they see people around them have worked with, as opposed to, okay, what is the best of the best? That is what I want to get to him for.

Speaker 1:

And again, I'm not necessarily saying Goldman is the best of the best, but we're definitely up there in that list. And so I tell a lot of people that want to go to university what is the top two, three universities? Just apply for those, because in a way, in the worst case they will tell you right, but at least you have given your best chance. And so, like when I came to Goldman and one of my teammates was telling me the other day, it was clear to them that and I said it publicly at that time that my goal is to make managing director in Goldman, and that was 10 years ago and so it wasn't really a very direct line. There were lots of numbers of downs and I would say I've had huge support from my managers my current manager and my previous ones as well Lots of mentors that supported me and guided me. But again, if you don't set yourself goals, there's no way you can optimize for it 100%.

Speaker 2:

I love everything you just say. It's so funny. I would just finish listening to this book called the Psychology of Money and I highly recommend it. But you listen to it and it's really good.

Speaker 2:

What it says is that the writers say progress is slow, so you ignore it. But care is in its past and you can't stop but paying attention to it. Most of the time, people don't pay attention and don't set those goals, as you say. That can be over 10 years, 20 years and 50 years, because they don't see progress of a give up very fast, right when it can happen, so fast that you can not ignore it and therefore you just miss out the point. And again, this is why I love doing Black Lives, because I'm searching and allowing this conversation with successful black leaders to say that, well, minute, if Emmanuel can do it, if Claire can do it, what is stopping you right now? It's only you stopping you. This is so important that we normalize those stories. It's just not one in a million. There's a lot of black leaders out there and this is why I'm always pushing like build your personal brand black leaders, so we can really inspire.

Speaker 2:

Because, again, as you say, we are, we by nature, human nature we want to avoid pain, and rejection is pain, and people who have made such a wrong idea about success and success and failures are completely disconnected. Wait a minute. To achieve success you have to go for rejection and pain and so on, but because it was successful, people only see that, oh wow, I want to be so lucky. There's no luck involving to this. It may be a bit of luck involving to this, but it's a hard work of people never saying to my emails what people are doing, this or being rejected, or I send the wrong emails at the end of the time, and all of these hurdles. You keep going forward, forward, forward before you achieve success. So I know that your journey to being now manager directors was not easy, but how many roles did you take before getting to where you are?

Speaker 1:

So, after taking the role as a more of an internal consultant to various teams within a core team, and then I was aligned to a team focusing on data analytics and so providing franchise insight into how the particular businesses within FIC were working on. And then I was then aligned to a team working in the risk space and building some of the infrastructure at that time. But prior to moving to that particular role in risk, there were ups and downs in that team numbers of good milestones, numbers of things that were not that great as well, and so at some point I thought to myself okay, what should I do next? And, in a way, to really again thinking about my goals, what I wanted to do, and so I looked at length, internally and externally. A lot of things I realized and I think this will be important for the audiences you have to ask yourself a question who are my stakeholders and who are my sponsors and supporters? As I was looking externally and looking at in numbers of roles, I realized that, okay, I actually have a very strong numbers of sponsors and supporters or advocates within Goldman, and so they provided me opportunities for mobility internally, and that really culminated in the risk role that I got in my native.

Speaker 1:

I think sometimes we can be very reactive in okay, something is not going well, let me just live or do this or do that. Sometimes we need to just take a step back and ask yourself okay, what are the goals that I've set myself? Is this an event that completely derails the part of me reaching my goals? Or is this an obstacle that can really be able to overcome and find another way, more collectively, in really reaching towards that goal? And sometimes we can be so reactive that we just make decisions and we're not really thinking through the prongs and cons and thinking about how that is feeding towards the goal that we have set ourselves.

Speaker 1:

So my recommendation to all audiences long-term decisions never rush them. Take your time to really ensure that you are thinking strategically about them. Short-term decisions you could make those decisions at any time. So, because those short terms doesn't matter in the scheme of things and oftentimes we do it the opposite way Short-term decisions we take our times to really think about those decisions and they have very little implication. And long-term decisions bam, we're making a decision and that really has a more severe impact on us and the career trajectory that we want to get to.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so important, so important to think about that. Don't quit too quickly. Think about what is relevant and sometimes and I said that from a commercial perspective, when I work with businesses, because I mean the business of building brand as well that certain things take some time. Building a brand doesn't happen overnight, such as your success, and I think it's super important that your journey to where you are right now was made of people that also supporting you. So you know, as you say, sponsors, mentors, allies and so on and so on. How did you get them to see you as somebody who has the potential of becoming a managing director?

Speaker 1:

Sure, I think one thing is people does recognize talent, oftentimes see beyond where you are today. They actually see based on your forward potential, right. And we don't recognize that until we see talent ourselves. Like we could see someone that just thinks differently and is always giving good ideas. But you may have other areas where, okay, you say, okay, this person needs to need some work, right. And so what was clear to a lot of people during the course of my career is they saw I was always the last person to leave the office because that work culture was always part of my being a lender from my parents, where I saw them in pastors, walking and etc. So just being very hardworking and that was visible. And also I think I'm very creative, or I try to be creative whenever I need to do things and really think about the end user journey, like how are these people actually doing this thing? And their things are very relatable and I think people can talk at ease with me. And so a lot of these people again, and I was obviously very clear that, look, this is what I wanted to become, right, and that's the first thing is that the moment you tell people this is what I want to become. There is no ambiguity because they're really going to tell you no, we don't think you are suited for this, or there are gaps. These are the gaps that we have recognized, right? The latter is why I go from many people you have to do this, this, this, this better.

Speaker 1:

My manager bought a lot of very senior people at the firm as well, and I made some adjustments, and one of the adjustments that I realized is, as you get more senior, you can't be thinking too much about the micro details.

Speaker 1:

A lot of senior people think about things high level, because that's really the level of engagement that you're really involved in, and so I needed to ask myself how can I be able to pivot in really conveying information from very detailed to high level, right? The second thing is, as you get more senior, or even as you engage with more senior stakeholders, you have to ask yourself what am I doing for this person In such a way that, if they have anything, they will call me and say just help me sort this out, right? And so you then need to think about okay, what am I spending my time on? How am I adding value? And this is part of the process in making managing director Godma's access. An example is there's a process of the selection of who gets promoted and it's really very much aligned to some of those things.

Speaker 2:

What you're talking about is so important is that you need to understand whatever the gaps that you need to fill and improve on. And again, from that it's so key like how are you adding value to the business? The more you're able to add value to the business, the more people are able to perceive that. But I think another element of this key is that innovation. Are you able to just accept that the situation we're in is supposed to stay the same? Are you able to think differently and, at the same time, putting the customer at the centerpiece? Because if a customer is satisfied with the customer, there's going to be more growth of the business. So that's very important. I think we're reaching the end of this podcast and you've been so delightful and insightful as well. I'm curious now it's been 10 years at Goldman Sachs, you've been celebrating your work and even so, if you have not done it already, but what does the future look like for you?

Speaker 1:

The stage where I am now, again recently promoted, is more around. How do I pivot my day to day, where I am empowering my team and I'm really thinking more strategically right, like you still want to make an impact, you still want to be visible. You need to then pivot, to be more strategically living and to really think what do I, my key stakeholders, care about and how can I be able to optimize for that? So and again, the title matters, and so people are going to be looking at you in a different light, and so you need to then make the necessary adjustments to really ensure that you are still relevant and you are really still making a necessary impact. Is there still a long trajectory in my career growth and ways of me improving?

Speaker 2:

I mean you're still at the beginning and also at Marvel that you're doing as well. The black, you know the firm-wide black network setting committee and also Goldman Sachs and again what we Goldman Sachs, emea Black Engineers Network, which is important because people sometimes just think that they just need to do the work, but what the impact can also be beyond just the work. So, alongside that, like, what are the things that you want to see as well for the networks that you part of?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but the best part that I'm really looking forward is how can we're doing a lot of things within the black engineer network in Goldman. How can we be able to network with more people externally or with other firms that are doing similar initiatives, so that we can really form more of a working group? There are certain challenges that we're trying to really address as individual complaints, but there are things that we can really tackle collectively. So we're looking at ways of really sort of creating those kind of relationships and I'm sure we'll be connecting on that point as well with you and really seeing how we can really form more of a JV and really helping to raise the brother awareness of areas where we think that we could make more of a bigger impact collectively as opposed to individually.

Speaker 2:

Can not echo this movement enough. This is the reason why Black Rise is what it is is that there is so much we can achieve as a collective and trying to act individually. I mean, it's been such a pleasure to have you. You are such a delight and so humble in everything that you've achieved, and I know that, as the beginning of this new career, you are about to take things further. Who knows, you might be the next CEO of Goldman Sachs. At this stage, what is stopping you? Your ambition is wild, and so should it be, so thank you so much for being part of this episode.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Thanks a lot for your time.

Speaker 2:

Pleasure For all our listeners. I hope that you enjoyed this episode really and I hope that you took a lot of notes and, if you haven't, you need to listen to it more than once. And, emmanuel, I hope that you can reach out to you on LinkedIn. Yes, this is the best place to so. Linkedin is a place and it's the very kind person. So, richard, and if you're lucky to be on Goldman Sachs Blacklist, you might attend one of the fabulous events I've been there.

Speaker 2:

The last one was with Bloomberg, which was fantastic to be such a room full of Black excellence. But again, as I said, this is just the beginning. Emmanuel, it was a pleasure to have you and, for all my listeners, I will see you very, very soon. Take everybody, thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Rise. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit the Black Risecom to find out more. This is Black Rise where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising.