Black Rise
Welcome to Black Rise podcast, your gateway to inspiring conversations with the crème de la crème of Black talent, leaders of 7-figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. Your host is Flavilla Fongang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur and she will be your guide on this journey.
Black Rise isn't just a podcast; it's an extension of the first business platform dedicated to connecting the business world to talented, skilled and experienced Black talent. Our aim is to create connections, foster collaboration, and fuel growth by bringing together Black professionals, visionary entrepreneurs, and groundbreaking businesses. We're here to bridge the networking gap, facilitating collaborative growth not only within the Black community but also far-reaching into the broader world.
In each episode, we dive deep into the stories and experiences of our remarkable guests. They share their insights, challenges, and strategies that have propelled them to the pinnacle of success. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned professional, or simply hungry for knowledge and inspiration, Black Rise provides you with the tools and motivation you need to reach your own pinnacles of achievement.
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Black Rise
How To Become A Partner At A Law Firm From The Beginning Of Your Career - With Ashley Williams
Stepping off the beaten path and forging a new direction can be as daunting as it is exhilarating, which is why the insights of Ashley Williams, tech thought leader and co-leader of the Technology Transactions Group at Mishcon de Reya, are so invaluable. In our latest episode, Ashley takes us through his own journey of identity exploration and career transformation, revealing the power of self-assessment and the courage needed to pursue professional fulfillment. From the spark of meaningful connections at a London Partners event on AI to embracing his mixed heritage, Ashley's story is a testament to the diverse cultural influences that mold our professional identities and the strength we draw from our backgrounds.
Navigating career choices is seldom a straightforward affair, especially when you're charting a course that is unfamiliar to those who came before you. This episode delves into the solitude of being a 'first'—breaking new ground in both higher education and career development, particularly within the black community. I candidly share my own shift from the corporate world to the vibrant venture capital scene, underscoring the essence of mentorship and the boldness required to change generational norms. Our discussion also touches on personal branding and the pivotal roles self-confidence and identity play in empowering us to advocate for diversity and enable opportunities for the next generation.
Concluding our episode, we turn to the nuanced dynamics between legal advice, business acumen, and technology. Here, Ashley underscores the importance of building trusting client relationships that transcend traditional legal roles, offering insights into the evolving nature of the tech-savvy legal professional. We also highlight the collective ambition to enhance diversity in tech, the ethos of communities like Black Rise, and the broader societal impacts of technology, as exemplified by platforms like Bumble. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation about shaping the future of tech, law, and leadership—one that promises to leave you inspired and ready to embrace your own professional journey.
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Having a reflection point for yourself at various points in the year is super important. I do that myself twice a year and say what am I getting out of my current role, my current job, and am I enjoying it? And do I see a future, five years down the line, where I'm still enjoying it and still getting out of bed and being excited about what I do?
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Black Rice podcast, your gateway to inspiring conversation with la crème de la crème of Black talent, who are leaders of seven figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. I'm your host, flavilla Fong-Gang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on this journey. Black Rise isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our mission is to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and enterprise. We strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackrisecom to find out more. Hello, everyone, welcome back to another episode on the Black Rise podcast. Everyone, welcome back to another episode on the BlackRise podcast.
Speaker 2:It's my job and my pleasure to always bring you the most exciting guests that you've never heard about. Actually, this one is great. He is good at raising his personal voice. I could not say anything about that, and I think I should give you a bit of a backstory. I was requested by London Partners. It's an organization that focuses on bringing tech, especially in the tech space and maybe beyond as well, and they did this great event on AI and they gave me a responsibility to be the moderator I have no idea how maybe because I speak too much and I think I had about maybe 20 or 25 very great leaders from different spaces, from different angles, from law to, you know, technology and engineering and so on, talking about ai, and my job was to moderate and make sure that everybody gets a chance to speak, which was fantastic and I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:And one person I really picked up, you know, my attention was this gentleman that I have with me, which is ashley williams, and I'm you know you, we're going to be best friends and um, ashley will Williams co-leads the technology transaction group at Silver Circle Law Firm Mishkonderea. He's an influential thought leader in the tech space, works with high-growth tech companies and multinational corporations. Let me just tell you he's going to be working with BlackRock as well, helping them exploit technology assets and navigate data protection issues. So that tells you that this man is not only great, intelligent, clever, beautiful. I mean, I'm selling you well, ashley.
Speaker 1:I mean super selling. Can you come write my LinkedIn bio for me? I?
Speaker 2:think it's a good idea, but yeah, so I think it's a nice way to describe you. But if you had to describe yourself in one word, what would you say? Or maybe a few words, it's a long way of saying it, but it's such a such a great, such a great journey. I'm so excited about talking about how you got there I quite like the one word challenge.
Speaker 1:I would probably say adventurous is probably the best way to describe me, always interested in that next adventure, uh. But I love the intro as well. I love the fact that that was the first time we'd ever met and now we are constantly saying hello to each other, bumping into each other, catching up for lunch yesterday. It's brilliant, so thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:No, my pleasure and I'm delighted to do this. I think sometimes we don't. We really underestimate the power of making the right connections and how fine my leads us too, and this is the beauty. So, ashley, I want to start from the beginning and your journey. So I love to know. Upbringing childhood what was it like for you? Who was people who influenced you when you were young?
Speaker 1:childhood. Uh, I had a great childhood, to be honest. Um, yeah, really good. So I was actually raised by my mom, so single parent, but she was my mom, my dad, my superhero, everything. So definitely an influential person in my life, a very strong woman, which was great, raised in the north in a wonderful town called Harrogate, but if anyone's ever been there, harrogate is probably one of the whitest towns you will ever been to. It is very much of a certain demographic, but it is beautiful and has some excellent restaurants if anyone does want to frequent. But my background is I'm a mixed race individual, so my mom was Irish, my dad's Jamaican, but I identify as a black man.
Speaker 2:When it comes to the Jamaican heritage that you have, how much of a culture do you think that you connect with?
Speaker 1:Very little, I would say, in terms of the Jamaican culture in and of itself. Very little. I mean I think that probably stems a little bit from not being raised in my dad's family that closely. Obviously we did say hello and keep in touch, but it probably feels a little divorced from that part of my background, much closer, culturally at least and from a brought up perspective, with my mom's side of the family. So probably, and again in Harrogate. So it was, yeah, probably not until I got into my later years that I started really engaging with my Jamaican heritage.
Speaker 2:I have a lot of friends who are mixed race and I almost feel like once, once they say to me that you have to choose between either being being black or being white. I was like, oh, do you? And I thought that you can tap into this. You know, I think about myself. I am and I'm, and I'm Cameroonian, african, french, the Frenchness that you can hear from my accent, and I and I feel that French culture. I feel as well in the African Cameroonian culture more specifically, because Africa is a big continent. So the Cameroonian culture that I understand, I feel sometimes, especially when you grow up in areas you say some, predominantly white, when did you, did you at some point felt you know that you were a black person, a black boy, or do you always, never question this in this environment?
Speaker 1:I think that's a really good question. I think when you're young it definitely feels more stark as well. I think everything feels a bit more stark. But I think there was almost and I suspect a lot of people would uh, echo this as mixed race background but there's almost a feeling of not belonging in either. Um, so that feeling of you know, you're very, you feel very black when you're in very white spaces and you feel very white when you're in very black spaces. I think certainly when I was younger I felt that quite a lot. I don't really know when that feeling disappeared, but definitely now and for less than a decade or so, it's kind of like I know my, I think, just being much more comfortable in my own skin, much more knowing of who I am and which bits of my heritage I allow in and shine most through me is now much more settled. But yes, certainly as a child it was quite uncomfortable in both at certain times.
Speaker 2:I can imagine, and it's never a good place to feel, and it's good to also have a good system around you to support this. So we visit Haringate, but we are both in London, so how did that tell me if I'm going too far? But the next step I would like to ask you is that journey to education. So what did you? Yeah, what did you study?
Speaker 1:So I this is probably what brought me down to the South is I worked hard at school. Some people may have called me a nerd. I would say, naturally gifted.
Speaker 2:That's a better way of saying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a much better way of saying it, but I ended up studying law at Oxford. So I came from Harrogate and went down to Oxford for three years and in theory I'm a very proud Northerner. So I was always going to go back north and do my career in the north. But from my first job I ended up actually having a secondment down at British Airways which pulled me to London, which I came down to for six months and then never really left, and that was about 13 years ago, which is why I'm still in London and have to pay the Norman tax every time I go home and visit and apologize to my family for such decisions.
Speaker 2:What made you choose law? Most people would choose something a bit more, less fun, no offense, but yeah, what made you choose law?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was one of these strange kids that just knew quite early on what they wanted to do and law was always up there. I think it's a combination of liking the world of debating and um and advocacy, way too much time watching tv law programs on tv, um, and then couple that with an actual general passion about history as well. When you kind of add that all in, if you put that into a computer it would spit out lawyer um. So I kind of uh, I found my way to law quite quickly actually, um, and I knew I wanted to do a vocational course. Like I was the first in my family to go to university and everyone else had been very vocational in their nature and that probably you had a big influence on the kind of course I wanted to do at uni, I wanted something out of this. I didn't want to just go and do something which I thought might not lead to an obvious, obvious job do you know?
Speaker 2:it's interesting, are you a single child?
Speaker 1:no, no, I have a. I have a sister as well. We love each other dearly, uh, uh, no. So my sister's eight years older than me, uh, but she never went to uni. She decided after high school that she would go, uh, do a vacation which became a nursery nurse, has been very successful as such, um, but didn't didn't really have a passion for academia, um. So there's kind of it's interesting when you have someone older, an older sibling, you typically can watch their path. But this was a bit different, because we are very different people, um. So, yeah, when I got to the point where I needed to make decisions around future career in higher education it was it was very new. It felt quite lonely, actually, in terms of not having someone in the family to really bounce things off on, and you kind of had to go in and find that resource and that support base further afield yeah, I think this element of loneliness is something that we have normalized, especially at work in the in the black ecosystem.
Speaker 2:So a lot of that you know you. You couldn't relate to who you wanted to become and and sometimes you know what you're're describing is thinking higher and wanted another level of future which is probably beyond what you've seen in your family and obviously I don't know enough about your family. But I'm just saying in general and it's hard sometimes to connect, and I always say to people be careful who you surround yourself with, but you have that natural thing to say well, I can't really connect to those people in my family because I don't understand it. I have to look somewhere else. And it's interesting because I think about my own personal journey as well. So I'm from a family of entrepreneurs, so we like to start things. My mom is always hustling, so I'm used to that. It's always an opportunity to do something. Sometimes I have to stop myself.
Speaker 2:I was like like, let me just write this idea on twitter. Whoever texts it texts it right, but um, it's. It's interesting where you get to a point where you you can't find what you need within your circle and you have to go somewhere else it's so, it's so true.
Speaker 1:I mean it's it's still. I still find it sad that you you open a newspaper or click on a news article and still see the title first black man or woman to do x. You know that still astounds me and I think it's not surprising, therefore, that you still feel that sense of loneliness at time. It was interesting. I think the last time I really felt this actually was about five years ago, before I stepped up to partnership, and I was looking around and lots of people were talking to partners and similar teams etc. And I was thinking there's not really many people in the legal world that look like me, um, and I did.
Speaker 1:I'd found that quite difficult. Actually. I had a couple of people I could reach out to um, but again, that was a moment where I actually went beyond my current network to try and speak to people, um, who'd walk this path, and I think that's quite a common desire to try and speak to someone who's walked that path before that looks like you comes from a similar background, et cetera. But it is definitely more difficult and certainly as you get more senior. Unfortunately, that is definitely the case in our community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think also the issue except from you and I understand the importance of personal branding and being visible and also utilized, because for me, personal branding is also commercial asset but I think you think about our parents generation is very much be quiet and do your work. And they, some of them, have carried the same approach like we just be quiet, do your work, don't get in trouble, don't be the loudest in the room and so on and so on, and sometimes you know, it means for me probably why I'm an entrepreneur is that I have to go against what is being said. It doesn't make sense for me to do that. Why are you asking me to do this? Can we think about that approach? It takes a lot to be wired, because what you are telling me right now is your ability to rewire as well your mindset to be.
Speaker 2:You know what actually I'm not finding what I want with my circle. I'm going to go further. So obviously you talked about your first entry into the real world that took you to London. So what has been, again, some of the other roles that you got involved in to lead you to where you are right now in your role with Michigan de Rea, and how did it go?
Speaker 1:Probably one of the biggest decisions I made was when I was about three, four years qualified.
Speaker 1:I was an American law firm selling myself for a couple of years, predominantly for money, and decided that I needed a change.
Speaker 1:I wasn't hugely happy with the role that I was in and that was a really big moment because it's do I stay on this path or do I jump and do something completely new?
Speaker 1:And at that time, I was working predominantly with very large, huge international conglomerates and corporations and big, big tech companies, often against more high growth companies, high growth tech companies and I was like I actually I actually would prefer to be on that side of the fence right now. Um, and so I made that decision about eight, nine years ago to jump um and work more in the vc world and more with entrepreneurs on day-to-day basis. It would still do a lot with larger corporates as well, which is great, but making that decision jumping to a smaller tech boutique law firm which at the time, was largely unheard of was a real decision moment. It was I'm pulling myself off this rat wheel and deciding a different approach for my career, um, and that was probably one of the best career decisions I ever made not for my bank balance, but uh, for my, for my future career, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:do you know? What you describe is so important that you have to choose what is more important for you? And is it about the money? Is it about getting the right career that makes sense and will pay off in the long run? And we know there's a lot of people who are in the wrong job just because they pay the world, because they have a mortgage to pay, they have kids who are going to private schools, and so on and so on, and it can't, as you say, get out of the rat race. And it's important to have that leap of faith. I talk about a leap of faith that you took on yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hugely. And I think the main thing there, I think the confidence in myself at that point was high in terms of I was like, okay, I know I've got worth here, I know I'm valuable and I know, even if this doesn't pay off, if this is the wrong decision, I have enough confidence that I can get back on track. I mean, thankfully, it was the right decision, but I think it was the right point to make that decision, and the understanding that it didn't matter like I can readjust again and I was young enough to to make that adjustment as well, which was, which was nice.
Speaker 2:We were listening to this episode right now and thinking like when is the right time for me to move on to the next career decision, to the next career move?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that is such a difficult question, but I think the key is I think reflection points are really important. It doesn't necessarily have to be the reflection points that your business tells you is a reflection point, but having a reflection point for yourself at various points in the year is super important. I do that myself twice a year and say what am I getting out of my current role, my current job, and am I enjoying it? And I'm just, do I see it a future, five years down the line, where I'm still enjoying it and still getting out of bed and being excited about what I do? If the answer is ever no to that, I think that's a pretty big um realization moment of change may be afoot. Uh, but likewise, I think that I think there are definitely people who make moves because they get a bit bored. Um, I never think boredom is a good idea to make a um I think.
Speaker 1:I think boredom is the first sign of changing something, but it doesn't necessarily mean a change of job entirely. I have a friend who I say has probably had about 10 jobs but she's been in the same company for the last 11 years. But when she gets bored she goes out and challenges herself in different ways and some of that has moved her around the organization. But she realizes that is her nature as well. So it's useful to have that reflection point and say is there a change I need to make? But it's not necessarily automatically. If you're bored, jump job. I think it's a question of is there stuff in my job that gets me excited every day?
Speaker 2:And if the answer is no, go find something else as we continue this engaging conversation, remember that black rise is more than just a podcast. We're a dynamic platform where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with black professionals, entrepreneurs and black owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where Black excellence thrives globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a 5 star review on iTunes. Go find something else. And something else doesn't limit quitting the company, but just means we're evaluating the job that you're doing. I love that. So, because it takes a lot of energy to go and search out that the market is always crazy. You know, when I think about you, know you you're very, you're very humble and I love this about you. But you know, you certainly see that you're a partner, which is, again, a nice level to be in. But, um, people are just thinking about the, the low, and maybe we can discuss a bit more about the company that you work with. It's not very black.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:How did you navigate and also use your I would say your blackness? Have you used your blackness as your superpower or you just tap onto your skills and your ability?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the statistics in law are not great, um, for the black community, that's for sure. And actually even when you look at the stats now they are better. But it still masks a problem that it's better at the more junior end and at the senior end it's terrible again. So we have a huge retention problem of retaining black talent in law world. I think that some of that is historic because it is a very old school industry and it's driven as such, which is frustrating at times, I would say in terms of have I used my black superpowers to advance my career? Certainly not in my earlier part of my career.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, you talked about it it earlier. You're brought up and I was certainly brought up as I have to work twice as hard to get the opportunities and if I fail at something, my failure will be under the spotlight more than others. That was fairly well instilled on me from an early age and certainly when I was a junior that played heavy, so it was always really bring your a-game every day. You cannot mess up approach. Now I think, definitely when you get more senior and you take on more senior roles, I use my black superpowers in terms of opening up networks for other people, making opportunities for other people.
Speaker 1:I feel like I have a platform, which is great, and I think that it's very empowering to push the right agendas. Try to make things more diverse. I've been on ED&I committees for the last 10 years in law and recently taken on a NED role with OneTech, which is all about acting as a catalyst for improving diversity within the tech ecosystem. I think all of those when you're more senior, just it feels more comfortable to to go against the grain. I think yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's such a great strategy to look into it.
Speaker 2:And I hear um, sometimes you can get distracted and want to do too many things and, yes, you might want to do impact, but at the moment, at the beginning of your career, it's about you, it's about being great what you do. And I think people don't realize sometimes that when one of us do bad, it's on all of us. When other companies do bad, it's on one person. And so you know you have to understand your relevance and your value that you bring to the company, for them to listen to the initiative that you want to bring in. And I think that's super key, that where are you in your career right now to decide how much are you bringing of yourself and the power of influence that you can bring on, you know, to the business. I think I would say to anybody listening to this I know you value be. It's funny when I was employed, I would always say that I want to be to a point where they'd be sad. They'd be not just sad, but they see the commercial dilemma of losing me.
Speaker 1:And when I feel that, then I can just make my ask you're like I want tears to roll if I ever leave this organization. A period of mourning for a week, maybe. Yeah, I think you're right that. I think that's absolutely right. I think it.
Speaker 1:You should never feel pressurized to stick your head above the power pit or to to do something just because you are black, like I think, particularly when you're a junior. You've got one million and one things that you're just trying to figure out, like how do I turn this computer on, how do I file this document there's so many things that you're learning at that stage to then add a whole pressure of and I should be pushing my black agenda and promoting black rights in the workplace and really moving the dial. I certainly felt that when I was a junior and then somewhere along the journey, that pressure just eased off and then it stopped being a pressure and an obligation and something that I wanted to do, a passion. I think that's when it becomes something that you do as a day today piece and you want to do it rather than feeling like I have to 100%, even if I think about myself as my own personal career.
Speaker 2:the beginning of my career was about proving and demonstrating my ability as a marketer, as a branding person, and I've done that, then shifted into the area of a black woman in tech and now I'm moving to the next area, but a career with so many beautiful faces and what you see quite often at the end.
Speaker 2:But, as you have 15 or you know, 15-12 years in the business, you want to have now okay, now impact, really important for me. But the beginning, you know, it's much more about let me be the best, let people recognize me for my expertise, and then I can add some layers. But again, this is my personal view. Everybody can choose to do whatever they want, but I feel that what I've done with my career was with natural progression and it makes sense to me. So that's why I know that black is my business and I'm enjoying what I'm doing, doing this because it makes sense to me and I bring on everything that I've learned working with other technology companies and God knows I've worked with so many to then know exactly in which direction I want to go. So, ashley, how did you make it to partner?
Speaker 1:Tell us what has been your strategy, your approach to it? That's a great question. I am very proud of being a young partner in the city, although someone did call me old yesterday, made me very uh, don't edit this bit out, people need to know I'm young. But I think I think, like there are things that in the law world and I don't think this is the same in any profession where clients or whoever you're engaging with assumes a certain level of excellence, like I'm very fortunate and hardworking enough to get to law firms that are very well known and therefore there is an assumption that all the lawyers there are good lawyers, so kind of like.
Speaker 1:Then how do I differentiate myself from the other lawyers? And I think for me which was just quite natural because I'm just generally quite extroverted and like meeting strangers, it's taking interest in actual people and their business. And I would say you know, 99% of the time my clients ring me up for a question, it has nothing to do with law, it's either a commercial question or something about their business or just wanting a soundboard. And that is the holy grail for my practice anyway, which is becoming that trusted advisor for everything, like it doesn't matter what it is. It's someone that you feel like you can lift the phone to and ask them something that's completely unrelated to, potentially, the area of law or potentially not to do with the business at all, but have someone who knows you, knows your business and is there looking out for your best interests.
Speaker 1:I think that's probably a lot of my clients are my friends, they've become well-known to me and I think that's the big piece. It's all about people and relationships. We've talked about this before. That's the same piece across every sector. It's about relationships and people yeah, relationships and people.
Speaker 2:I say that all the time when, when I tell clients how to be able to position their business, is that there's people who have the level of expectation in terms of what they hire for, but the reason why they stay with you is because of the thing that you that there's beyond. How are you able to deliver beyond the expectations? And the brand that people still love to this day is a brand that surprises you. They support you, they understand the importance of customer service and then so on and so on. Unless they don't have any competition, therefore, they don't care, but if they have competition, they definitely give you the most exciting service that you can probably imagine.
Speaker 2:And what you discover is, at the end of the day, like to do business, people that they like and you know, whatever it is your lawyer, I think, about my I'm kind of more than god, I think probably more than 15 years now, uh, and I can people say, oh, do you want to know your guy? I'm literally the same age as his daughter, so he knows me as if, and he treated me like I'm his daughter's. Like what the hell are you doing? Again, iavilla, I was like I'm sorry, but that relationship is so key for me and I'm never planning to go anywhere else because I think that's the natural, that's what makes those experts you know, in your case, those relationships as are so important. It's interesting I had a conversation last um last time, with uh Oli, fantastic black woman, who is a partner at EY, and she said to me there's 46 soft skills that people need to have to be successful, to make it to the top, and I like how you give me just one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ok For all the listeners. Maybe listen to that one first and then come back to hear this top tip, shall we call it? But I think you're so right. It's about people. It's about knowing who you like and working with those people that you like and having that, um, trusted piece.
Speaker 1:I think the other bit is, you know, often clients lift the phone to hear what they don't want to hear. Like I'm not, I'm not always going to tell you what you want to hear. That, or rarely tell you what you want to hear. I'm telling you what the reality is, and I think having someone who just tells you as it is and also won't sit on the fence like has an opinion it's very rare that I will ever say the words on one hand and then the other is this is the position and this is my view, and I think that is really important as well. And we do, as a legal sector, get a bad rep for sitting on the fence and not making decisions. So I think that was a fairly easy one to win in terms of knowing how to differentiate myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk more about your role, and it's so funny because the first time I met you, you definitely do not look like a lawyer. A t-shirt relax Even yesterday, relax. None of his suited and booted tie and all all the you know the crazy briefcase. You are none of that. When he was, he's like oh, he's a lawyer. That definitely doesn't look like one. So tell me more about the role, especially because you are in technology and ai is definitely your sweet spot as well. Tell me more in terms of why, what you do specifically with your clients and what you are revealing any secrets, but yes, and why is it so relevant as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think like I was talking to someone the other day about this who does wear a suit and actually works in the tech space and he was saying for him it feels like a suit that he puts on like a bit of a shield every day, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. I definitely appreciate that. For me, my view is you come to me for my expertise and my knowledge. I'm always very well presented, but it doesn't need to be suited and booted and certainly I think if I went into most of my clients offices in a suit and tie, I'd probably be laughed out at this stage I'm not saying that it came t-shirt with, uh, an iron clothes.
Speaker 1:It's still looking super cool, but you definitely do not look like the typical suited and booted that people have when it comes to lawyers yeah, to be honest, I think, probably generally across my entire team, we are a fairly relaxed informal team, and I think part of that is the attire as well, but actually, more importantly, just our nature. I think that for me, if I was, if I was engaging someone, I want to go to someone who makes me feel relaxed and makes me feel comforted in their presence, and I think that's that's kind of what we're selling to our, our client base as well. It's we're not we're going to make you feel as relaxed as you make us feel relaxed, which I think is is nice. It's a nice way to start off any relationship love it so.
Speaker 2:So tell us about the technology. Tell us about what does a lawyer with an AI and technology does? Exactly.
Speaker 1:No one day is the same. I would say we both work in the same sector. That emerging tech space is brilliant, like I think it's not for everyone because every day is different, and certainly we talked about this a little yesterday, actually at lunch, that you need to be comfortable in the uncomfortable because everything is new, everything is changing so quickly. But we we work with tech companies that range from all sorts of tech, but really exciting tech as well. So a lot of the work that I do at the moment is in ai. We work with your drone technology, we work with autonomous vehicles, driverless cars.
Speaker 1:It's a real mixed bag of tech clients who are have one common thing, which is they're all pushing the envelope. Everyone is trying to do something slightly different, which I think is brilliant. That's what gets me excited. I like to say to people there is a boring aspect of my job which is a lot of documents, but there's also a really exciting aspect of my job which I do more and more every day, which is great, which is exploring what the tech is of our clients, exploring what their business is, and it's almost like a dragon's den day at times where you just get shown all these amazing tech stacks or different solutions which, as a big kid, I just love to play around with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, it's often. I remember when I first showed you the platform and you got so excited about that oh, I love it. And I remember showing the platform to another lawyer and he was just interested in doing the paperwork. I'm like, wow, you can really see the difference between somebody who really has got to a point where they just do the job with no complete detachment, and someone who is actually excited not only just to help you but also make sure that you become successful. And I think this is where you know led you to where you are.
Speaker 2:At such a young age, you understood the importance of first choosing who you want to work with, to making sure that you care about your job, being good at what you do, which is really key, and how you can support your clients beyond that. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't. I say it's being kind, it's free, it doesn't cost anything and it can take you such a long way. And this is where we, you know it doesn't. I say it's being kind, it's free, it doesn't cost anything and it can take you such a long way. And this is where we, we know, uh, I've enjoyed just talking to you. Just, you know, people say too often that I'm just not bringing people alongside me because they're black. I'm bringing because they're good, and this is what I'm really trying to demonstrate about this entire exercise, about exercise with black rice, which is super exciting I mean I just generally am inquisitive, like I like to know how things work and I like hearing about.
Speaker 1:I mean, the joy working with high growth companies is you are typically really close to, if not dealing directly with, the founders day and day in. They're so passionate I like every day you can get a bit of that passion from them as well, and that, you know, steers me on for the rest of the day as well. But my view, I mean there is this myth I think that has been told to lawyers for a very long time that you can do your job without knowing fully what the client does. That is nonsense. Like you have to know exactly what the client does, how the tech works. That you can. You know we walk through the whole customer journey and it's important for me to know what the customer journey looks like so I can say, oh, here we can tell the, we can tell the customer this, we can tell them this. We should flag up this point at this point.
Speaker 2:That's for me the more way more interesting bit than actually then turning to the document and producing the document people listen to this podcast who are running technology companies quite often and you tell me if actually you can tell me instead of me making that statement. Do you think people come to you too late or what is the right time to come to you?
Speaker 1:always come early. I mean, we talked for for a long time, like way before you even think about launch, and that is the right time, because then I can say it's much easier to give you advice to avoid pitfalls than to try and plaster over the issues later on. So I think there's so many great law firms not just us, but predominantly us great law firms out there that are always willing to give back in terms of time at the outset, to give steer and give direction and share their time and their expertise at the beginning so that you don't make those mistakes. Um, so earlier is definitely best, but you know it's, it's a. We work with a lot of clients who are fresh out of university. This is brand new to them, like you know. They don't even know when they need a lawyer.
Speaker 2:Um, and so often you know, we may get introduced later than we like, but we can always help actually, everything that you say is obviously fantastic and and I think what comes to my mind that you've achieved the peak of your career at such a young age and you also have a spirit. I'm gonna tell you if you don't already, but you have a spirit of an entrepreneur. So what does it look like for you? Are you considering maybe don't say it's a secret are you considering maybe going down the path of maybe having your own law firm? Who knows, we need more black-owned law firm out there.
Speaker 1:To anyone listening from Mishkondorea. No, I am certainly not considering that. You know what I think it's. I often sit down and have five-year plans. I sit down and be like what does this next five years look like? What does this next five years look like? What does this next five years look like? And right now, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing and I'm enjoying I love being part of a team. I've realized that, which is great. So whatever I do next is always going to have a team around me.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I don't think there is such a thing as being at the top of your career. Like I is such a thing as being at the top of your career. Like I think when you're a lawyer, you look at partnership and you're like that is the thing I want to get to. But when I got to partnership, I didn't think, ah, done it was. It was very much like, hey, great, I'm glad I I'm glad I'm here, um, but I have like a lot more that I want to do and a lot more things I wanted to do as well.
Speaker 1:I guess the one thing that it does do is open you up to broader opportunities outside your role as well. So I said earlier my my non-executive directorship of of one tech. That has been made possible by virtue of being a partner and having the opportunity come to me, which I think is is great, and I think hopefully there'll be lots more of those experiences as well. Where I can can kind of share back the helicopter view, um, and contribute and provide a different opinion on on things that aren't in my sweet spot, but hopefully I've got some value to add.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that. I think it's so good to. It's good to know I don't know how long they've been with you just over five years. If we decide to do something else.
Speaker 1:I'm calculating now, like hold on a minute oh my gosh, we need to keep it.
Speaker 2:So what I love about you is, like you know, beyond just doing the work, you always want to make an impact and support. But what is the vision? What would you like to see in your industry and what also looking at technology? Looking at technology, looking at low, what is the change that you would like to see? Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:That's a really good question.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, we talk about my industry.
Speaker 1:So I think my industry is tech like I'm in a law firm, but my industry is tech and that's probably why, as well you know, I've taken on a role outside of law in a tech field, because that's certainly where I focus.
Speaker 1:I think I'm very privileged to be part of the one tech board and every time we have a board meeting I come away super incentivized, super ambitious. I'm convinced we're going to complete the diversity problem in, uh, the tech ecosystem like in the next year as a result of all of these exciting board meetings. So I'm really excited to, I think, just try and help move the dial um in the tech space and get a lot more black people and just diverse diversity generally push through the tech ecosystem. Um, I think that's really achievable and there's things we can be doing now, a lot of things we can be doing now, specific things which we're working towards and, spoiler alert, we'll be announcing more and more as we go through this journey. But, um, I think that's probably where I'm most excited to try and use my platform, use my network, to try and move the dial in the in the tech ecosystem space and and you're doing a great work.
Speaker 2:And you're doing not only a great work, but I feel very lucky that you're also part of the black rice family and and you've've been to it. And this will not happen if we don't understand the power of our network, the power of our voice, and use it for the good, because there's so much nonsense in this world that we need to need some good thing to happen I'm a full convert.
Speaker 1:I am a full convert to black rise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if I could have a badge to say one of the early, early members, that would be great, because I think you're absolutely right, it's so important for us to be collectively pushing agendas, collectively coming together one. One thing you did ask me at the beginning of this podcast is like childhood and, I think, a lot of the time when I looked in black communities as a child, we were competing against each other, definitely in the media. Like you know, hands up, I used to be a massive X Factor fan, but you'd watch X Factor and you'd see two Black women with massive vocals, brilliant singers, go head to head all the time. You're like, well, only one of them could go through that kind of like competition element that I think black rise really pushes against it's. We're not here to compete, we're here to help each other rise up and help each other use our networks to to get to where we want to be, which I think is way more hopefully, way more members in the next year, I'm sure, flavilla, um and exciting people to meet as well.
Speaker 2:It's great, yeah certain people, so many amazing people I've met so far. You know it's funny because, um, if you know um, you probably know masterclass. Masterclass is this great platform where you listen to a session with very not some of the big names, from kevin arts to, you know, isra and, and people in business and so on, so on, and I really love the story of the founder of bumble the name come out of my head right now and I love. What she said was that I'm going to use technology to change behavior. If you think, back in the days, women were waiting for men to make a first move and she used technology to change that behavior, where women were empowered to decide who they wanted to go along with and, oh, men or depending, I think there's now Bumble Friendship and that's exactly what you're describing is here.
Speaker 2:Is that what I told us is it should be only one of us is enough. Only one of us can make it to the top, and also that there's not enough of us to to to cover all the expertise needed, and I'm trying to change that and it's beautiful and I feel like it's funny that you said, because I wasn't uh, about to announce, but obviously you are part of my founding uh, founding members. Yes, as you've been here from the beginning, you didn't know that, but now you know. So, yes, I'm announcing it as well to the public. So it's good, good to know. So we see. You get your badge thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I'll take it on this podcast.
Speaker 2:I've taken it and I'm wearing it with pride, thank you my pleasure actually been such a pleasure having you on this amazing podcast. What is the best way to stay connected with you is Is it LinkedIn?
Speaker 1:I am obsessed with LinkedIn. Yep, so LinkedIn. Anyone who hears the podcast and feels like reaching out always happy to make new friends. So please do so.
Speaker 2:And Richard is a good person. We're going to share his profile in the descriptions. Otherwise, ashley Williams, you can find him. Mishka Nderi is there. Ashley. It was a pleasure For all amazing listeners who have been listening to this episode. Welcome to another fabulous episode that you want to listen to twice, and I hope that you learn a lot and I will see you guys. Bye everyone. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Rise. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit the blackrisecom to find out more. This is black rise, where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising.