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Black Rise
Welcome to Black Rise podcast, your gateway to inspiring conversations with the crème de la crème of Black talent, leaders of 7-figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. Your host is Flavilla Fongang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur and she will be your guide on this journey.
Black Rise isn't just a podcast; it's an extension of the first business platform dedicated to connecting the business world to talented, skilled and experienced Black talent. Our aim is to create connections, foster collaboration, and fuel growth by bringing together Black professionals, visionary entrepreneurs, and groundbreaking businesses. We're here to bridge the networking gap, facilitating collaborative growth not only within the Black community but also far-reaching into the broader world.
In each episode, we dive deep into the stories and experiences of our remarkable guests. They share their insights, challenges, and strategies that have propelled them to the pinnacle of success. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned professional, or simply hungry for knowledge and inspiration, Black Rise provides you with the tools and motivation you need to reach your own pinnacles of achievement.
But we're more than just a podcast. We're a dynamic community where excellence knows no bounds. When you subscribe to 'Black Rise,' you're not just gaining access to incredible stories—you're also opening doors to exclusive opportunities within our thriving ecosystem.
Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation, and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers, and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit www.theblackrise.com to connect, collaborate, and embark on a transformative path to success.
This is Black Rise, where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future.
Black Rise
How To Master Customer Experience and Technology - With Marie Feliho
What if you could transform your business by mastering customer retention and leveraging cutting-edge technology? Our guest, Marie Feliho, Director of Customer Experience at Virgin Media O2, reveals how she navigated her journey from Benin to a thriving career in marketing and technology. We discuss the vital importance of knowing your best customers and how technology can revolutionise their experiences. Marie’s story is not just about professional success but also showcases the power of diversity in driving business growth and innovation.
Inspired by a fierce female character from an American TV series, Marie’s career journey is nothing short of captivating. From small-town Besançon to the bustling streets of Lyon and Paris, Marie’s transition to England marks a pivotal chapter filled with challenges and triumphs, including battles with discrimination during job interviews. She offers a unique perspective on cultural differences between France and England, shedding light on media representation and societal acceptance, and providing a broader context on racial and ethnic barriers.
We also explore crucial strategies for aligning departmental goals to create a seamless customer experience. Marie emphasises breaking down organisational silos and unifying data insights across departments to enhance customer journeys. We dive into the critical need for adaptability in this fast-paced industry, illustrated by BlackBerry’s downfall. Packed with actionable insights, this episode is a treasure trove of advice on data literacy in marketing, securing budgets, and running low-cost experiments to drive transformative change in your business. Join us for an episode brimming with valuable lessons and inspiring stories!
Experience Business Differently
Black Rise is not just a podcast but an extension of our Business platform. We are on a mission to bridge the gap between businesses and the immense potential of Black talent. We provide a dynamic platform where businesses and individuals can connect, collaborate, and prosper with Black professionals, entrepreneurs, and black-owned companies. We strive to showcase the value, creativity, and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity, and mutual success.
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Do you really know who your customers are? That's the first question. Do you know who they are? Often I'm struck by the fact that I join businesses and then I ask questions like okay, what does your best customer look like? Who's your best customer? And often there isn't a straightforward answer. They haven't really looked at it. It's a pretty simple question, right, but do you know what a good customer looks like?
Speaker 2:Do you know what their journey to becoming a good customer was? Like Flavilla Fongang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on his journey. Black Rise isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our mission is to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and enterprise ally. In working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and enterprise, we strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackrisecom to find out more.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode on the Black Lives Podcast, and I hope that you've enjoyed it. I keep saying that at the beginning of every conversation. I hope that you've enjoyed it, but I know that you've enjoyed it because I've enjoyed it. I mean, how would you not be inspired by all the amazing stories of all the great leaders that we have on this podcast? And I feel like we're still at the beginning. There's so many other stories that I want you to discover and if there's anybody who you think that, flavia, I would love you to do an interview on the Black Lives podcast. Please reach out to me and we'll do our best to hunt them. I've been known for being a great hunter and some people that I have to count among my friends for that. Who is this woman who's chasing me? But you know what? Yeah, for great relationship, for great friendship sometimes sounds like that, okay.
Speaker 2:So today we're going to talk about we've been talking about finance, we've been talking about property, we've been talking about leadership, obviously all of our leadership, obviously in different types of fields and industries and today we're going to talk about creativity. We're going to talk about marketing, we're going to talk about technology, but beyond that, you know, when I meet another French person, you know when I'm in London, I that you know. When I meet another French person, you know when I'm in London, I always get excited because I always want to know, like, where did you live? You left to right, is the reason you're no longer in France or somewhere else, and so forth?
Speaker 2:And I had the pleasure of meeting Mary for an introduction a few years ago and since then we've just been just, you know when, people that you just meet and just have a good laugh, and I felt that this is an opportunity as well for me to share with you the journey of an incredible woman who has done so well and it just keeps on becoming, you know, the next, maybe she might be the next president, who knows, but she's achieved such a great success.
Speaker 2:So Mary Filio is with me today, bridging the gap between customer marketing strategy and technology driven by data, back by 20 years of extensive experience in bridging successful customer retention strategies on an international stage, and she's worked for some of the biggest brands. Right now, she's also joined Virgin Media O2 as a director of customer experience, where she plays a key role in the change team, driving business transformation and enhancing customer experiences across multiple touchpoints. We know the importance of customer experience. We know the importance of building a brand that you love, and that's what Mary is doing at a large scale while, at the same time, using the power of technology. So, mary, how are you?
Speaker 1:Hey, hey, flavilla, I'm doing great. Thank you, it's really nice to be here chatting with you. It's been a while since we've wanted to make this happen, so I'm delighted I'm doing well, it's sunny outside and, yeah, I'm looking forward to our little chat. And thanks for being such a great cheerleader, president, no less Always always, always.
Speaker 2:I always feel like you know, when somebody I can relate to wins, I feel like I'm winning too, like I won, I just won. It's like, uh, okay, fantastic. So I feel like we should start from the beginning to really understand. We both have a french accent was like what's going on and we're gonna understand. Are we gonna understand each other? Yes, we're gonna understand each other. So I feel like we should know, we should understand where you started. What has been your journey? So where did you grow up? What's your heritage? What are the people that influenced you when you were young and to be, to become the woman that you are today?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I was born in benin, uh, republic of benin, so tiny country on the west coast of africa, uh known for its history and the link with our sad history of slavery and also the Amazons of Benin, fierce warriors. I was born in Benin and moved to France around the age of nine, first stayed in Paris for a bit and quickly landed in a small town in Burgundy called Chalon-sur-Saône.
Speaker 2:What happened? Why not Paris? How did that happen?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, we arrived with my mom, dad, I'm one of seven kids. What Never told me that, yes, I am, I am one of seven kids. What Never told me that, yes, I have. I have one of seven kids and the one before the last one, you know, best position basically Five brothers, one sister. So, yeah, and and look, I mean, you know, I think when we, when we first arrived, it wasn't clear yet where we were going to stay. Being able to stay in Paris with a big family like this, when your means are limited, you know, can be tough, and I think my parents had, you know, were given an opportunity to be in a smaller town where, I guess, things were a bit slower, a bit cheaper to live in. And you know, they took up that opportunity. I think it was probably, you know, an interim place initially in their mind, but we ended up staying there because, you know, it felt right, I suppose, for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, your story reminds me of the movie I watch and anybody has Netflix, not promoting Netflix but the story is something about this family. I think they came from Congo and it's a true story, you know and they had an opportunity to be. You know, he was a doctor and he couldn't get any opportunity and they offered him because they were looking for a local doctor. Ah, yes, I know that movie. It's a great movie and you can see the journey of having to deal with, you know, stereotypes and so on.
Speaker 1:It's funny you refer to that because I can really relate to it. You know, we were one of maybe two or three families of black people back then in that town, so very, very visible, very visible, very, you know, different I mean. You could, you know, as a, as a child, you could, uh, you could really quickly sort of feel that right the the way others would look at you. You know, I I never felt, uh, until then I never felt that difference. But living in in benin, everyone who still looked like me yes, yes, there were some white people, there were some Arabic people as well, but broadly, you know, I wasn't different, I was like everybody else. So that was, yeah, that was certainly one of the first key moments, really, yeah, yeah, of my life or childhood.
Speaker 2:I love that. So you know it's always interesting when your parents take you into a new environment. I've listened, and I love to listen to so many different stories about. You know you grew up in Africa and you come. Your parents make a decision to come to Europe and you know it's hard for children. So I think one thing that you know you never think about your blackness when you're in Africa. Everybody's black. Like you don't even ask yourself a question. You arrive in a different environment where people make you reminds you that you're not the same. It can be quite hard for a child. You know, even if you're a family of seven and you know that you're very close to one another. But how your parents prepared you for. You know for the world what kind of things and values that you grew up with.
Speaker 1:Well, you know it's funny, there's two sides to it. I think my dad was involved in politics. That got him into trouble and you know that in some ways maybe accelerated our move to France. But one thing was that by saying things in the way that he thought them, you know, having strong beliefs and ethics, all those things were things that had stayed with you know, that had stayed with me and with my brothers and sisters in such a way that you know you sort of have to speak your mind. If something's not right, you have to stand for it and stand by it and you know, and fight for your rights, cetera. So there was that side.
Speaker 1:It was a bit of a dichotomy because at the same time as we arrived in France a bit like a lot of Black families do, sadly, certainly at that time it was all about assimilating ourselves. Right, we're now in France, so we do as they do and we try, and you know, be quiet, fit in, don't look for trouble, et cetera. So it was sort of growing up with a bit of a, like I say, dichotomy and yeah, you know, two sides to me, like one that was like you know, don't cause trouble, lay low and fit in. And the other side, which is well, but you have to, you know, don't cause trouble, lay low and fit in. And the other side, which is well, but you have to, you know, you have to stand for what you believe in, et cetera. And so, as you grew up, that was always a little bit of a yeah, something that was a bit difficult to navigate, right, and it was about finding the right times to do it. And it's only, as you know, only as you grow up that you're able to really see it in the way that I'm explaining it to you now. Right, when you're in it, you just try your best to navigate it.
Speaker 1:Things don't seem quite right all the time, you don't really know why, and you try and figure it out as you go, really, but I would say, I would say that this is something that that I can now recognize, has stayed with me, as I was, as I, you know, went through my professional life um of trying to fit in for for too long and maybe, you know, maybe at times missing out on on um, on opportunities, yeah, um, to speak my mind, and it's yeah again, as you, as you grow up and as you, you know, become a bit more mature. You know you test. You test different things. You affirm yourself in who you really, in who you really are, and it's um. It's only by doing that, step byby-step, that you start seeing oh, hang on a minute. By doing that, it's actually, you know, it can actually play to my advantage, as opposed to me trying to fit in all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always feel like fitting is almost. You know, when you're in a fight it's like damn it. I should have said that, yes, and you didn't say it. That's what fitting feels like. You know, you build something inside you that you know doesn't seem right, but you don't. You keep it and at some point you just explore it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can totally relate to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so now you are in this small town. How far was your ambition and where did you choose to study as well?
Speaker 1:Well, you know it wasn't in in my family, not studying was not an option. You know you had to study, study hard, be the best you could be, but even more. I mean, the expectations were always like you know, you can't just be, you can't just be good, you have to be extra good, right? Because, uh, you, you're not white and people will look at you differently and so you have to not give them any reasons to not accept you in what you want to do. So you know, my dad went into one of the best business schools in France USCP which you might know, and I think for him it was pretty clear that all of his children needed to do well, and that's been ingrained in me and my siblings from quite an early age. And so it felt quite sort of natural to study, to go to university and to do well. You know, failing was not an option back then with the parents I had.
Speaker 1:So what did you study? So I studied literature, so baccalaureate literature, so it's like the A-levels here Literature and languages. That was really my thing. I was speaking different languages Spanish, italian, english, different languages, spanish, italian, english and then, uh, I decided to take a degree in, uh, advertising and marketing. Um, which is what I did after, uh, after I took my levels.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because advertising at this at this time when you took advertising, was very you know you were going to tell us that, but advertising at at this at this period of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like in the late 90s, telling my age now early 2000s, yeah, it's true. But yeah, it's a good question, you know, because I think part of me didn't want to be doing what everybody else was doing. So everybody else was going to university to study economics or law or, and I knew this wasn't for me. This is just not who I am right. I needed something that was a bit more, a bit more tangible, a bit more creative, and I decided on marketing and advertising. It's sort of a funny story which I tell in the first version of your book, flavilla, voices in the Shadows, where, basically, I decided to move into marketing and advertising because I used to watch a series. It was an American series of a.
Speaker 1:There was this lady who was working in an advertising agency I still can't remember the name of that series. She was blonde and she was fierce, you know, and there were all these, all these um, male around her, like you know, not respecting her and and and making it difficult for her. But she was just really strong and I I really liked this character, she it's not that she was flawless, but but yeah, I thought I really liked the fierceness that she had and I remember thinking, oh yeah, I could, I could be that woman. You know, I want to be that, but the black version of it and I you know I did my little research, found this degree that I could do it wasn't too far from my hometown and went for it really, and, yeah, I never looked back. I did that and then I worked for a bit after I had my degree. I worked in France and I actually started my career in an advertising agency, worked a bit in media planning.
Speaker 2:So when you say that you started your journey in media planning, was it still in a small town or did you make a move to Paris?
Speaker 1:No, I moved, I moved. So my degree was in a town called Besançon, which is still a small town, yeah. And then, after that, then I moved to Paris and I lived in Paris for a couple of years where, uh, where I worked, um, actually I, I worked initially in Lyon, uh, in an advertising agency, and then when I did the, uh, the media planning work, it was in, um, it was in in Paris, uhis, uh, where, where I had moved, you know, the big city to find big job and and all of that. So there was a change, really like going from being from.
Speaker 2:You know, because you, you go, you know, coming from benin. Then you go to. You arrive in a small town and then you arrive again. You come into the, the capital city of. You've done another city before going to the capital city.
Speaker 1:You find it a bit challenging no, not, really not at all, because actually I you know, we used to go to paris a lot. I I felt quite, I felt quite comfortable, uh, in in big cities and actually freer. To be honest, uh, there were actually more people like me there. I've never had this sort of sense of, um, of, uh, I've never had this sort of sense of of boundaries or barriers when it comes, when it comes to geographies. I just, you know, I just feel like I can, I can build a life anywhere I want to. Really. So the Paris move wasn't, wasn't a big one for me, it was. It was an obvious, an obvious move for from a career. It was an obvious move from a career. And you know, if I wanted the career that I had set myself to achieve, it was sort of an obvious move.
Speaker 2:Amazing, Amazing. So you're in Paris. You say you've been in Paris for two years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for about two years and despite it being the biggest city, more sort of more open-minded than the smaller cities that I had, you know, grew up in, I always had this sense of gosh, I could do more, but I feel like the barriers are being put in front of me because of who I am and what I look like. And it was very obvious when I would go for interviews and you know I mean I laugh about it now, but yeah, it's obvious, it's not funny at all. You know I'd go for interviews and you know I mean I laugh about it now, but it's not funny at all. You know I go for interviews and you know you're the only one waiting in the waiting room, for you know the time when you had your interview and the person would open the door and, you know, keep looking around to see if there wasn't someone being hidden and then end up with with, uh, oh, that's you and that. You know this I mentioned it hasn't just happened once, it happened quite quite a few times, like a version of that and I was, I was getting a little bit fed up with uh, with that, and I just thought, well, you know, you can't limit me, I will decide how far I decide to go.
Speaker 1:And at the time I had my cousins who had already moved to England and who kept on telling me oh, come on, marie, you know you've got to come and join us here. Leave France, you know, it's a lot more open-minded here, I promise you. You even have black people on TV. I'm like what, what?
Speaker 2:you don't know is that in France, when we both I mean now I left, but when I left, when I was living in France, in Paris, the only place where you could see black people on TV was either on the music channel or sports channel and you had entertainment music on Sunday morning. That's the only place that we ever saw black people.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and their Frenchness was disputed whether or not they were winning. Depending on whether or not they were winning when they won, they were French. When they didn't win they were.
Speaker 2:They were African Arabs. Yeah, yeah, very sweet.
Speaker 1:But you know, I mean, obviously not everybody in France is like that, but that was the backdrop really.
Speaker 2:But you know, let's remember this, it's not just a French issue. We've seen Harvey Media even have done it in the UK in terms of how they're addressed when it's you know, when it's a terrorist attack, and how people whether they are, you know, from Muslim or not, and how the wording is done. We know that, you know, the media play a part in terms of that perception of stereotypes and so on. So it is that thing that we're still dealing with to this day.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent, yeah, it's that. And then you know, and I suppose, with this kind of issues, right, you've got different ways of tackling it and of disputing it. You know you can launch yourself into, you know, setting up organizations that fight it, or you can, you know, decide for yourself as well, like, no, I'm not going to stand for that and I'm going to find something better for myself elsewhere. And that's sort of what I did, really Initially. I came to the UK thinking I'll stay six months, improve my English, get myself into a place where, you know, I can, I can have a more international profession If you, if you, if you master English, then you know you've got more, more open doors. And look, I, yeah, six months turned into 20, I don't know, 22 years now I've been in the UK and once I got here and I really enjoyed it, I just felt at home and I loved the multicultural aspect that England had.
Speaker 1:And initially I was in Nottingham. Even so, it's not just London. I could already feel that in Nottingham. Then I moved to London, to London, and then it was right there. You know, it was pretty fantastic. I just thought, wow, this is, uh, this is the whole world in one place. I would need to keep uh hopping about. Let's stay for a while, and I think it's that it's at that point that that I thought okay, I'm not entirely sure from a professionally what I want to do yet, but I'm going to study again, and I took a bachelor's degree in business and a master's in international marketing.
Speaker 2:So what you don't mention. Obviously we know that you've come to the UK but people don't know that you were also a director at Just Eat. Now you're a director at Virgin. So you're working with some of the some very big, you know, media brand or consumer brands. But how did that tell us that journey to get there? Because you know I remember the first time I spoke to you was like wow, how many people you know are at that level are there, especially, as you say, the marketing, the advertising space, and this, as you say, the marketing, the advertising space, and this is not so much of a question, it's more you know, sometimes I think you know we left because we just I know that I left because I was like I can't be bothered to fight, I've got to go somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And sometimes, sometimes, like what would have happened if? If I thought I'm and I'm, I'm not saying that you know we should have stayed whatsoever sometime I always wonder, like what my life would be if I stayed in france, and so on yeah I think knowing my character would have definitely been um in trouble I'm sure you would have uh flavilla but coming back to your career, well after, after I I studied, I finished and finished, and I already knew back then that advertising, yes, but I needed something a little bit more sort of tangible in from a data point of view.
Speaker 1:So it was one of the you know, one of the things that I had studied a bit more in the latter part of my studies and really enjoyed and could relate to, and I guess, you know, having had the education that I worked towards, really really helped. I think it made my CV interesting and I sort of started in loyalty, actually working for the Nectar Card, which at the time was the largest loyalty program in the UK but potentially still is. It was that Tesco Club Card, the other one. So this is where you know that company lives and breathes data, and so that was a pretty great school to start my career in, like really delving into big data, understanding big data and really pushing hard to turn this data into incremental revenue, essentially for many brands from Sainsbury's to TUI, bp, et cetera. So it was a really good stepping stone really to cement my understanding and knowledge of data.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then yeah, and then from there I moved into the digital world. You know, like I think at the time not so many people really knew data that well or how to use big data. And you know I moved to lastminutecom who really were were searching for a profile like mine, um, and and the fact that I had all those extra languages for a more global role was really really quite helpful, um, and you know that's that's sort of how I stepped into uh tech. You know so hard data then tech.
Speaker 2:Then I did a bit in telco when you just you mentioned something that is very interesting. You say that the fact that you spoke multiple languages help you having this global role. So how do you feel that if you didn't have if you mean that you just said the english would have that made a difference, or not?
Speaker 1:so much you know. I think it was a, it was a competitive advantage. You know I can never say you know 100, but but I think that you know when you're, when you're working internationally, most of those countries that I would deal with, they would speak english, right, but but to create a rapport and build relationship, which is really quite so important in in business, um, having having that, you know, that baseline, baseline of the language, really really helps. I would say so. Whether or not they would have given me the job, I can't say for sure, but I know for a fact that it helped.
Speaker 2:As we continue this engaging conversation, remember that Black Rise is more than just a podcast. We're a dynamic platform where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and Black-owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where Black excellence thrives globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five-star review on iTunes. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five-star review on iTunes.
Speaker 2:And I think it comes back to the point that you need to know what you bring to the table. And you need to know you know not necessarily know what others have, because you don't know who you are, what are the other candidates have for themselves. But it's important to really gather a sense of what do I bring to the table and how can I play with all my assets and then not just look at the negative and so on. And I think I wanted to ask you as well, as you talked about big data, people listen to this podcast right now, may not have the luxury of having you as the, as a director, but what do you think is probably the biggest misconception companies usually make when it comes to understanding the data, but also understanding the data to drive revenue?
Speaker 1:With big data, I think most of the time companies don't know what to do with it. They've got all this data and they're sat on it and, you know, don't use it partially or don't necessarily question it in the right way. It partially or don't necessarily question it in the right way. There is no, there's often no um, centralized and and universal um or universal approach to understanding their customer base, um, which is why, which is, you know, which is where having a strong um, uh, crm team, customer relationship marketing team, a strong data and insight team becomes really important. But you know that customer centricity that everybody is so you know longing for, is that buzzword that you hear a lot right, often it's not achieved because of the way the organizations are set up and the fact that the leadership doesn't necessarily see what's the best way of putting it. Yeah, it has the it doesn't even know how.
Speaker 2:It doesn't even have a know-how.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't know how to do it. They often know that having all this data is really important, but how to set it up and question those data, uh, in a way that's coherent and indeed customer centric?
Speaker 2:um is something that often is not is not well harnessed in in businesses so you say, something else is I'm going to challenge you a little bit, sorry, because I think that's so interesting as well your expertise you say that they don't have the right team of the right structure. So I'm going to ask in terms of what do you think makes the right structure to be able to harness big data effectively?
Speaker 1:So I think cross-functional ways of working is really key. What you do tend to have is set up where you're. Departments are set with their own objectives, right, and they're all trying to do the right thing by. You know the objectives that are set up, but they're not joined up right, so they're approaching problematics in one way and the other departments will be approaching their problematic in a different way, but not necessarily thinking about it. From joining up that customer journey, from thinking about, well, it is that same customer that we're talking about here.
Speaker 1:So what is the impact? If I create a solution or a proposition that's like this, when you know my counterpart in another department is creating the things that I'm really proud of having achieved in your career, yeah, yeah, just it and elsewhere is bringing those teams together and really thinking about putting the customer at the center of our questioning. Like the customer and the data. You know, sort of bringing that hand-in-hand with each other and going from the same set of data, and then we can ask loads of different questions, but we're going from the same set of data, the same known insight that we then go on, you know. You then go on to develop and ask more questions, but it's in a joined up way and the solutions are thought of from a customer journey point of view as opposed to for a you know at one point in time customer problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does make sense If we were listening to this right now and probably wondering how they do they know, based on what you just said, which is very good, and it always shocked me that people are not able to talk or create, collaborate across departments. They just create things inside, and that happens a lot, isn't it? And again, because I'm putting the customer first, it's super key, but sometimes we lose sense of that, which is like, okay, what are the numbers? And you keep doing the same thing and not actually listening or paying attention to what your customer wants to always drive innovation. So the question I want to ask you, yes, is like, listen to this, like, is that? How am I?
Speaker 2:am I actually using my data effectively to know what my customer wants tomorrow? Well, I mean, first of all, you know. Do you really?
Speaker 1:know who your customers are? That's the first question. Do you know who? Do you really know who your customers are? That's the first question. Do you know who they are? Often, I'm struck by the fact that I join businesses and then I ask questions like okay, what does your best customer look like? Who's your best customer? And often there isn't a straightforward answer. They haven't really looked at it. It's a pretty simple question, right, but do you know what a good customer looks like? Do you know what their journey to becoming a good customer was like?
Speaker 1:Equally, those customers which are not seen as being good customers yet, whatever you define as a good customer within your business, right, like so you're loyal and you know you can upsell, cross-sell too, etc. What has been their experience so far? What is the difference, then, to take them from that to becoming more of a loyal customer? Well, you know what are the gaps there? So I'd say that if you, if you're very clear on that and you know you've, you've really looked into that you're, you're probably in a in a good place, but if, if you don't know, then that's maybe the sort of basic question you need to ask yourself. Secondly, I'd say how much do you understand of what your colleagues in other departments are doing for the customers. How much do you understand their objectives? Does it clash with yours when it comes to customers? Does it align or are there dependencies? If so, then what bit of data do you need to look into and understand to understand how you can move forward together? 100%.
Speaker 2:Which is a very good question, very good answer and very good question to ask. People are probably wondering right now do I really know my customers? I don't know. I need to go back and do some work into this. It's a good way to start because you know you think about it. From us being two marketers, you might think that, yeah, this is a great customer, but maybe we're just waiting for the next. You know innovation and they just let you go, like that. This is what happened.
Speaker 2:I was watching I don't know what it took me so long. I love to watch founder stories and I watched so many and the last one that I watched was BlackBerry, where BlackBerry literally had 40% of the market you know the mobile market and they said, yeah, nobody will ever change if anyone, they keep at. And then iPhone came in and they were convinced that no, people don't want to change and they missed out just because again something they were not able to predict where the market was going, but also the evolution of the industry and how technology is changing. And if you think about marketers right now, marketers who do not have any level of digital skills are missing out because we are going in a much more connected, intertwined.
Speaker 1:Yes, connected, personalized, yes, and with higher expectations from customers. You know, one observation that I make is that you often have businesses often obsessed about new customer acquisition. A lot of them tend to neglect the vast existing customer base that they have, which is, more often than not, their most powerful competitive advantage, really. And then they'll go on and add a loyalty program and it's often wrongly thought of as the main solution to retention or then they'll go on and engage in some sort of discount wars. But of course, all of that can help.
Speaker 1:It's part of the tools that that you can, you can use to retain your customers, but it will always hold you back if you don't get your basics right. And that's about building trust and transparency with with a few principles, really, um, you know which are. For me, it's if you've messed up, fix it. Uh, if are you able to anticipate and and meet your customers needs in as real time as possible, um, and that's why technology comes in and you know, uh, but, but harnessing the data to figure out what, what your customer needs, is obviously a key part of that. Um, and and things like if it's not right for your customers, don't try to sell it to them. So all of those are just basic things that many businesses don't really apply. When you have to meet those short-term targets, you just go for it, go for it, but you end up neglecting those pretty fundamental needs. Requirements yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that's why we hire you. It's like come and fix it Likeirements. Yeah, absolutely, and that's why we hire you. It's like come and fix it Like huh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I love it. I mean, I can talk. I know two of us can talk about marketing for such a long time. But this is also about you. But, as you say yourself, you know traditional marketing used to dominate yes, you know, paper billboards, whatsoever and we now have people and, as you know, people live on their phone, can live on just consumer information on demand. This is all changing, but you are able to. I think what I'm curious to know is in terms of your ability to be able to see. Yes, this is where I need to go, this is where I need to be able to look around the digital space. How were you ahead of the curve to be able to see that?
Speaker 1:well, again, it's uh, you know, I think I think I was um, uh, in some ways, lucky enough in the trajectory that I, that I took in in my career, to in, yeah, to land in places where, um, uh, you know that that were making the change. You know, if I again, if I think about Just Eat, I had the opportunity to lead the transformation and development of our global customer engagement strategy. That are both from a MarTech and marketing and comms strategy standpoint. But I was also able to collaborate with some incredible individuals, whether it was in data products, and one of the things that tied us together was that we were really sort of pushing each other to excel and innovate. And so, when you collaborate and join up, you know some of the best people in data, in brand or products. You know they are already thinking themselves about you know the next best thing, right, and you come in and you join up on your knowledge, their knowledge, and you're constantly looking at yeah, we want to be ahead, we want to be there because the market is just fierce.
Speaker 1:Just, it started.
Speaker 1:There weren't that many competitors at first and then, all of a sudden, you had all these, you know, the Deliveroo of this world, the Uber, eats and whatnot that joined and that started, you know that were pushing the game a lot further and you've got to be on your toes if you're going to survive in this market. And so it's being able to build the sort of technology that helps you be agile and add on to it and experiment in a really fast way to understand. Well, this is what seems to work today for our customers, like, this is where the expectations are. Let's make sure that we can serve that. So really, I'd say the, the mix between you know, my own knowledge and like really delving into insight and data, and I, you know, going out there figuring out, uh, you know, whether it's through conferences like reading, etc, where, where the wind is going, um, bringing that back to, uh, to to data, challenging you know, know the colleagues that were working within that and then together building more of a story and solutions that would work for our customers.
Speaker 2:It's so good, you know people listen to this and they're like, oh wow, we'd love to. You know, there's not many marketers at this level who've made it and so forth, and you're giving a lot of advice, the importance of not. I think that, especially in the kind of marketing, digital transformation or digital customer service experience require teams, not something that you can do on your own, and if a team solid is not, the team is not solid, it's not going to work. It's not. It's not going to work. It's not going to work. And we know a number of people who say, yeah, we're going to hire this person and then you don't change the team.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I mean, you've got to be able to change the culture, bring people with you on that. You know, on that, my journey and, like you know, if you're, whatever the vision is, they've got to believe in it and you've got to set yourself up for success. There is no point in having a strong vision, using all those right words of customer centricity, if you're not prepared to really challenge yourself in the way that your operating model functions. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:So team is important. People are aspiring to be where you are right now, so I would say team is important ability to still be aware and up-to-date with market trends. Networking is one of the things that you mentioned, which is important as well. What other things do you think have helped you get to that level? What other things that you've embraced soft skills or hard skills that I think have been important in achieving your level?
Speaker 1:I would say to anyone uh, coming into the space like data, data literacy is really, really important, so you don't need to be an analyst I'm not, I'm not an analyst, right, but you need to. You need to understand how it works and how.
Speaker 2:What questions to Can you give us some examples so we understand, because people say well, I know, I know what prospect means. If people wanted to understand what you mean by data literacy, how do we know we're knowledgeable?
Speaker 1:It's a big question. I mean data. Literacy for me means, in the space that I'm at, it's the customer, right. So it's a bit like I was saying earlier, like who is my customer? What do they do? What's the percentage that I'm retaining, what's the percentage that I'm losing? What does incrementality means? You know, driving incremental revenue. That's often something that I'm struck with.
Speaker 1:People's understanding of driving incremental revenue is sometimes questionable. Right For me, how do you set up your campaigns in such a way that they can be measured so that at the end of this activity whether it's a campaign or whether it's a you know a new product feature you can truly say, right, because of that product features change. We've driven an incremental X amount. You know X millions in terms of figures, in terms of revenue, or in terms of figures in terms of revenue or in terms of visits, like whatever your key performance indicator or OKR is right, like being able to know.
Speaker 1:This is my objective and I'm going to be able to prove that I've met it in an incremental way by setting up my technology, but also my campaigns and my data, in a way that I can track all of that. So it's insight, right? Data literacy. Is that like insight ask the questions and the more questions you ask, the more you can start building a story around and, once you get the data and insight around who your customers are, what your problems are in the market, but maybe start knowing what sort of data you have actually, simply. And then, thirdly, it's like measurement. Yeah, make sure that you can measure.
Speaker 2:Would you add to that as well, having the right tools? Because I think that if you, you know people say to me, I feel like I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was touching on that, saying, like, having the right technology to enable you to do that is really, really important the right tools, and if you're not an analyst, or if you, you, you know, if you're not like that, the person who's good with numbers, like, then surround yourself with people who are right and then that you know that will help you, that'll make you look uh smart, because you'll get, you'll get the knowledge through them, um, and and you know, in the end it really is about adding value to each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that. I feel like I want to add a negotiation, because every time you know one thing that we know marketers never get any budget. Because we go and go and make some magic. It's like how you haven't given me any money.
Speaker 1:But again, you know, that's where data literacy uh is important, because when you don't get the budget, one of the things that I have seen helps get the budget is being able to experiment right.
Speaker 1:So to be able to experiment, you have to to have the right setup, right technology, but it doesn't have to be multi-million technology right it's uh, it's about being able to do the kind of experiments that you can do. So before before you go and ask for the big bucks, what can you do in an MVP way to prove that that's a good idea and that, actually, if they invested in it, this is the kind of return they could get? So if you can set this up with low to low, low to no budget to to give a sense of the uh, the potential, then that's absolutely the way and and actually this is, you know, this is how most businesses are are moving forward. These days, it's becoming harder and harder to get budget for anything unless you can prove in advance, uh, uh, what, what sort of return is going to bring, which is like almost like asking people to do magic, but that's a good way, a good hack.
Speaker 2:I love that you're giving a great tip and I think it's important go strong with your data, go strong, go tested. So you have just not wishes, helpful wishes, but some elements.
Speaker 2:As we say, data is king, so use that as the first thing, yeah, absolutely so, mary, it's been so good to have you, and I'm trying to think in terms of what is next for you. What is the next move of your career? What are you looking to expand? Are you looking to? You know, I don't know if you're already involved on trustee boards and anything like that, or I don't know what. What does it? What does the future look like? Oh, let's.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is such a good question. Look, you know, I think you know, through my experience, I've really sharpened my skills in. It's really helped me sharpen my skills in marketing, product development and technology and that sort of helped me cultivate a sort of unique professional identity. That's, uh, that's centered on driving transformative change and really, you know, from a getting into into businesses and helping them, uh, helping them improve their customer experience and retention uh, retention strategy is, is really something that for me, is, uh, I enjoy doing and I want to be able to do more of that. So it's very much in that space continuing to work in tech costs and drive change.
Speaker 1:But I mean, I'm also involved on the side with a number of initiatives. I'm the co-chair of the Black Marketing Council, which we've launched recently, and it's all about really furthering black middle managers within data marketing, who tend to leave the industry at that stage because there tends to be not many more opportunities after that. So, unfortunately, an abnormality rather than a norm, and that's really something that I want to be able to use my position to influence and change. I'm also involved with your fantastic initiative and company black rise, where you know I'd love to, I'd love to support some more in that uh, in that space, uh, so watch that space, um, but yeah, I think, uh, you know, non-non-non-executive directors role um would be, uh, would be something that I'd uh, I'd soon have enough time to bring onto my list of engagements, but for me it's about finding the right organization to give and help with my knowledge 100%.
Speaker 2:I think what you say is so key in the sense that we just don't want to work for a business or a second work of a business. You want to work for a business that aligns with your values.
Speaker 1:Absolutely More so than ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's funny, I was talking to a young person that was giving some advice. He's like when you're at the beginning of your career, say yes very often. When you have achieved where you want to be in your career, say no more often. So so know where you are right now and say yes to things that make sense to you. And say no more often because your time is so precious, yeah. And when your family keeps you around, no, you can't do everything, but at least do something that makes sense to you and make the impact that you want yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know we, the time we have on this earth is way too short to make it not matter. So I think you know, for me from a career point of view, you know there is no limit. The sky is the limit. But I feel like you know, so far I've had a great career, but there is so much more that I can take my talents and give to this world. But I think it's about finding the right match every time for any company that I work with and that I would want to continue a journey with, Absolutely A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:Mary, it's been such a delight to have you on the podcast and I really enjoyed it. We've learned so much about just from your expertise but also your journey to success. You know you made it into an industry that is really not well known for having lots of great marketers at the top, and you're one of them who's done it. And you know, coming from Benin, all the way to a village I say village, maybe a small city, I'm exaggerating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a city. Yeah, it's a city. You're going into the drama.
Speaker 2:I know you know me. I like to dramatize things and make a story more exciting. Here you are telling the story and I feel like you know you're still at the. You learned so much. At least pick one element. We raised a lot of interesting questions. Whether you work for a company, whether it is your business, do you know your customers? Do you understand the data? Any company right now, the power sits in understanding the data. Data is golden. If you look at the companies on the Fitzy 100 list, they are all data company.
Speaker 2:And remember always, listen to this episode twice and don't forget to subscribe and follow and leave us some great comments and I will see you next Sunday. Bye, everybody. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Rise. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit the blackrisecom to find out more. This is black rise, where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising.