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Black Rise
Welcome to Black Rise podcast, your gateway to inspiring conversations with the crème de la crème of Black talent, leaders of 7-figure and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. Your host is Flavilla Fongang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur and she will be your guide on this journey.
Black Rise isn't just a podcast; it's an extension of the first business platform dedicated to connecting the business world to talented, skilled and experienced Black talent. Our aim is to create connections, foster collaboration, and fuel growth by bringing together Black professionals, visionary entrepreneurs, and groundbreaking businesses. We're here to bridge the networking gap, facilitating collaborative growth not only within the Black community but also far-reaching into the broader world.
In each episode, we dive deep into the stories and experiences of our remarkable guests. They share their insights, challenges, and strategies that have propelled them to the pinnacle of success. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned professional, or simply hungry for knowledge and inspiration, Black Rise provides you with the tools and motivation you need to reach your own pinnacles of achievement.
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Black Rise
How To Navigate Corporate Challenges with Confidence - With Kate Philpot
Can the experiences of growing up in a mixed heritage family shape your path to corporate success? Today, we uncover the transformative journey of Kate Philpot, Vice President of Global Sales Enablement at Getty Images. Kate dives deep into her Ghanaian and Irish roots, offering a personal lens on the complexities of navigating childhood in a predominantly white society during the 60s and 70s. Her story sheds light on how her family's emphasis on education and resilience forged not only her path but also the contrasting paths of her brother, who turned to entrepreneurship due to a strong mistrust of authority.
As we journey through Kate's career, we discuss her pivot from HR to sales, underscoring the value of transferable skills and the pivotal role of robust training programs. Kate shares candid anecdotes about working in male-dominated environments, emphasising the importance of confidence and resilience. We also tackle the broader challenges of achieving true diversity in corporate settings and the indispensable role of Employee Resource Groups in fostering community and support for minority employees. Kate’s insights provide a roadmap for young Black professionals aiming to break barriers in the corporate world.
Additionally, we reflect on the persistent socio-economic hurdles that Black professionals face, particularly the need to be exceptionally outstanding to reach the same levels as their white counterparts. The episode concludes with an empowering message: by normalising excellence among Black professionals, we pave the way for future generations. Join us as we inspire listeners to stay connected, strive for excellence, and create impactful change within their communities.
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Black Rise is not just a podcast but an extension of our Business platform. We are on a mission to bridge the gap between businesses and the immense potential of Black talent. We provide a dynamic platform where businesses and individuals can connect, collaborate, and prosper with Black professionals, entrepreneurs, and black-owned companies. We strive to showcase the value, creativity, and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity, and mutual success.
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Why not be the first or the second, and maybe then you can start to build enough of a cohort such that you progress together through that organisation. It's completely understandable but, you know, disappointing to hear, when you know, when young people are just self-selecting themselves out of applying because there are organisations who want to be more diverse and, yes, they may not be looking hard enough but they also don't get applicants.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Black Rice podcast, your getaway to inspiring conversation with la crème de la crème of Black talent, who are leaders of seven figure and above businesses, across a spectrum of industries and above businesses across a spectrum of industries. I'm your host, flavilla Fong-Gang, an award-winning serial entrepreneur, who will guide you on his journey. Black Rise isn't just a podcast. It's an extension of our business platform, allowing the business world to connect with skilled, talented and experienced Black talent. Our mission is to serve as a bridge, connecting businesses with vast opportunities that lie in working with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and enterprises. We strive to showcase the value, creativity and innovation that Black talent brings to the table, fostering partnerships that drive economic growth, diversity and mutual success. Visit theblackrisecom to find out more.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode on the Black Rise podcast. I hope that you've been enjoying. Obviously, if you're listening, that means that you've been enjoying the recent episodes that have come out and all the episodes that have come out. I have a surprise for you, but I'm going to tell you now. But Black Rise always means that something is coming up and we're super excited. If you listen to this podcast in 2024 means that we have not yet launched the platform, but we're about to, and the way it's looking right now, I'm so excited. I can't wait for you to be using the platform, be able to connect and discover everything within the black ecosystem. And one of that as well is obviously having great conversations with black leaders who will show you how they've done it, how they managed to play the corporate game and make it to the top. And on this episode, I'm very happy to be joined by a friend and I'll give you a bit of a backstory. But I was lucky. I was just. I can't remember who introduced us, but yes, we were introduced, and sometimes somebody makes an introduction and you become better friends with that person than whoever you know.
Speaker 2:And Kate Philpott also sits on the board of advisors of my nonprofit, gta Black Women in Tech. But it's not about my nonprofit, it's about her today. She's a very accomplished. She's now the vice president of global sales enablement at Getty Images. If you don't know what Getty Images is, where have you been? She leads a team based across three continents, so it means that she's probably struggling around different time zones and is responsible for company-wide sales and service, training, coaching and enablement programs. So we're going to talk more about that. But, kate, so good to have you. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm very well, thank you, and thank you for inviting me for villa of course, of course I invite you.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes you speak to someone and I'm really lucky because around my circles I have, I'm just, I have normalized excellence right. So I'm like, wait a minute, maybe, maybe we should have a conversation, because we we have that natural opportunity to tell the world and really educate them on the right opportunities of being able to be accomplished and not let the color of your skin stop you. And we're not saying that it's not easy, but we're saying that it is possible, and I think that's what I want to show people. It is possible if you put your mind into it. But I feel like we should start from the beginning. And I know the Kate of today, but the beginning. And I know the Kate of today, but I'm curious to know the Kate of of a young girl. You have a young Kate. How was she like? You grew up in a big family. What's your heritage? What are the people that influenced you from a young age?
Speaker 1:tell us everything so I grew up, I guess, in a, I guess, what would now be called a fractured family. So my parents split when I was quite young. But prior to that, my father, who is Ghanaian, and my mother, who is British but of Irish descent, were based for a couple of years in Ghana, where my father is from. And, weirdly, I went back to Ghana years later and remember driving around with my father and saying things like is there a biscuit factory near here somewhere? And he I remember him distinctly saying how on earth do you remember that? Because I must have seen three. But I remember being given a plastic bag full of broken biscuits and it turned out he had a friend who ran a factory that made biscuits. It's, it's very strange how certain things stay with you.
Speaker 1:Um, so the time that I spent with my father actually was not that much. He was a doctor and I always said that he was far more, far more committed to his patients than he was, particularly to his family. He did, you know, I guess, like a lot of African fathers, he had a very strong regard for education. You know, in his world and I see it better now than I think I did at the time Education was everything and it was your route to security and as far as he was concerned that was the number one priority was being secure. So, even from a distance and even though he didn't live with us, so we were pretty much brought up by my mum um on her own, which you know. Again, I look back and think you know white woman with two mixed you know mixed race children in the late 60s and 70s must have been pretty challenging, but she did it nonetheless. But my dad from a distance was all about the exam results. So long winded answer to your question. I was the eldest child, very studious.
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting, right? Because now mixed city and people from different ethnicities, you know being together is pretty much normal, but at this time it probably was taboo. And I wonder, as a child did you feel sometimes that your parents had to do so much more than you, or they really kept this away from you?
Speaker 1:do you know, I? I think they kept it away from us. I mean, my dad worked in the nhs for 35 years and I'm sure that he experienced racism, you know, as an employee of the nhs, even though he was, um, you know, a highly regarded well, in fact, he had a general practice, he was an ophthalmologist, he had a private practice, you know, I mean, he was successful by any barometer. But I am sure that he encountered racism. And I'm pretty sure my mum did, because she was raising, you know, two kids who didn't look like her. But they did a very good job of keeping that from us.
Speaker 1:And I think even probably more importantly, importantly really, and particularly, my mum really reinforced the idea that we should, as we went through life, not let anything get in the way of what we wanted to do. And she was, I remember, you know, even again, from a very young age, being told nothing will stop you doing what you want to do. You shouldn't let anybody or anything get in your way. The most important thing is that you're happy and you know and I've taken I that stuck with me, that and from my dad you need to get, you need to pass your exams and they really need to be top grades and you know I'll be very disappointed if they're not. So you know, it was a combination, I guess, of of both things, but I think I sort of bimbled through life largely unaware of racism. I mean, you know, I think I remember the odd comment at school, but I think my brother had it. I don't think I know.
Speaker 2:My brother had it a lot harder interesting because it's funny because I talked to we had Ezechi on the podcast. He's also a mixed race child and he had it really hard. So it's interesting to think about being mixed race as a girl and being mixed race as a boy. So it seems like I don't want to generalize based on two people, but the fact that you say that your brother had it harder than you it's also very interesting, isn't it? But you know, it's the same thing as black women, just black girls and black boys. Men were always having it harder in different ways, and women were having it harder, right, and it's different things that we have to deal with.
Speaker 1:I think some of it is. Maybe, you know, it's more overt, potentially for boys and young men and men. It may be more subtle and and maybe less immediately obvious for for women. But you know, as an example, as we got into our teenage years, and this also might have been a function of, again, I was very studious and my brother was much more the the he's a couple of years younger than me much more the rebel, much more the person who would go. Well, why? And if somebody said don't do it, he'd say why, whereas I would go okay. So I think he, because he defaulted to challenging things and still does.
Speaker 1:He was more likely to rail against any kind of authority if he didn't believe that they had a right to be saying what they were saying. Yeah, and you know, when he I passed my driving test at 17, he passed a driving test at 17. We were allowed to drive my mum's car. He, before he reached 20 I think it was 20 had been, um, stopped by the police and it was called a producer. Back in the day he'd been stopped by the police probably 20 times to the producer. Back in the day he'd been stopped by the police probably 20 times.
Speaker 1:To the point that you know he would go to the local police station. You go, yeah, me again, um, and they would, they would stop him and get him to produce his documents. I have yet never, yet I'm touching wood at this point I've never yet been stopped, and I guess that's the difference, um, and because of that it made him much more suspicious of the police, much more angry, but I guess not unjustifiably. So I do think they, I think young men in particular, have a very different experience and because my brother was driving my mum's car and it was relatively new, you know it was the default is this your car, sunny gym, you know that kind of thing which, um, yeah, I mean he didn't take kindly to sounds like your brother probably an entrepreneur now.
Speaker 2:I mean, is he an entrepreneur now he is?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean he always was going to be. I mean, funnily enough, him and my husband are quite similar in that regard. I mean, you know, I would say neither are employable and they are quite proud of the fact that they're not employable. Uh, but, yes, entrepreneurs, both of them, that is so true.
Speaker 2:This is exactly where I realized, like I love people can employ me. I better just just do my own thing. And it kind of becomes a thing by default, like I have no other choice than being an entrepreneur, because I will always question, like does it make sense why we're doing this? And people get irritated by just accepting the status quo. And for me it was just something that really always upset me. But you know what you say. It's very similar to what you say like times he almost got to prison for something so silly was he was carrying like a swiss knife.
Speaker 2:I was like this is just somebody who left it in my car it's not mine and just because they didn't like the way he looked, and you know, and you feel provocative and and so on. That's it. They can just turn your life around and and I think this is what is so bad about the system it's hard that you know, as a woman, we have a complete. A number of times I forget I got, I got stopped, but because I wasn't wrong. But I've never got and never got stopped driving right, never for. Uh, just checking my papers, and I think that's one thing that is so brilliant to realize with.
Speaker 1:And saying saying um go on, kate.
Speaker 1:No, no, I was just going to say I mean I say often and I and I really mean it and I talk a lot with colleagues in the us.
Speaker 1:You know, thank god the police here aren't armed, because you know, you think about the us and and the the trigger happiness of people in the, you know, in the police and actually not even in the police. I read even just this weekend there was a I think it was a 17 year old kid that was shot by an off-duty security guard and he was returning a toy gun to a store because it wasn't working, or it was a replica gun and it wasn't working, and he got shot on the way into the store by a security guard who wasn't even working, who just happened to be armed to the teeth. You know, it's that kind of thing. I mean, my colleagues, they all talk about walking while black or driving while black and the risks that they feel that they run literally every time they step outside the door. And that's people's reality, irrespective of you know, whatever level of seniority they happen to have as an employee of our business. Getting images, do you?
Speaker 2:know the one thing that I always say I'm always worried about having a boy. You know if you have a girl you think it'd be easier. If I have a boy, you know you're worrying, it's late at night, all those things that my mom, you know she was lucky, she had four girls before she had a boy. And my brother is trouble less, right, but still you know having to worry more about this. But even as a woman you worry about other things and it's really really hard and think about you and your brother. Was your brother the entrepreneurial and and you, the, the woman who was achieved well in your career. When I think about your career now, and what, what kind of education did you pursue? Was it really in that same direction or was it completely different?
Speaker 1:it was completely different. So, although I have ended up, you know, in the corporate world, it wasn't actually my intention. I I was really into dance as a child and and I wanted to be a ballet dancer and you know, you look at the average ballet company of 30 odd years ago, it was very beige, yeah. So I mean, that was, that was quite the aspiration. But yeah, I wanted to be a dancer and and I was very committed to it and had I not had an injury that was again at the time, probably wouldn't have been. If I was to have that injury now it was career ending, but that was going to be my.
Speaker 1:You know my journey, typical of my dad and actually my mum, to a similar, probably not quite the same degree, but she was concerned that I should have something to fall back on. So they both insisted that I did my A-levels. That was the condition of being allowed to go to full-time ballet school and my A-levels were in English and French. I cannot now remember why, other than I really like reading books, um, which is not particularly a strong reason for choosing anything. Well, I guess you know I say that I do what you enjoy doing and I enjoyed reading. So I did English and French, and then, when I got injured, it's interesting for me.
Speaker 2:when people choose English, it's like isn't that what you speak, Right?
Speaker 1:Yes, but you can do. Yes, but you can do. In fact, as I recall, the A-level syllabus was English language and English literature. So you did do a piece on English language which was all about how the language is constructed and where it comes from, and actually the history of language is a really fascinating subject, which I did in a bit more detail at university. Subject which I did in a bit more detail at university, and the literature part is basically just reading books and saying what you think of them, which I was very happy to do.
Speaker 1:And then when I got injured, I thought well, you know, I didn't really fancy being a dance teacher. So I toddled off to university and again not very imaginatively did an English and French combined honours degree. So I was at university in Birmingham for four years and one year of that one academic year of that was spent in Toulouse in France, where I was supposed to improve my spoken French and do. I think it was the second year of a French student's French degree and weirdly we had to do do Latin, which I still, to this day, I can't.
Speaker 2:I hated that. Oh my god, I mean it's useful. I'm still confused by this. Well, exactly.
Speaker 1:I mean, I did Latin at junior school, I think, for like a year because we all had to, and then I dropped it as soon as I could and then to be told at you know 19, oh yeah, you're going to have to do Latin for this year. I remember just, it struck the fear of God into me because you had to pass the year to be able to go back and do your final year in the UK. Oh, it was so stressful. Anywho, yeah, that was my degree and you know I didn't again, I didn't plan really to be a teacher and, honestly, at that stage I didn't really have much of an idea what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:So I'm curious to know how you pivoted, because there's a lot of people, for example, failed footballers or da-da-da and so on. You know you have a dream and, especially when it's something that requires physical, you know your best body performance right, and if you are, you have an injury that is unrepairable. It affects everything. So I'm curious in terms of how you pivoted from this from and you had the body to, you know, to be a ballet dancer. People who don't know you don't, don't see how you look, but you definitely have a body for it.
Speaker 1:So you pivoted to now where you are in the position that you are right now yeah, um, well, it's, it's I guess it's sort of a few coincidences and, you know, being in the right place at the right time when I so. When I finished so I'd done a four-year course, which meant that by the time I went back to university most of my friends who had been on three-year courses had left, so I didn't really have any excuse but to get my head down. Um plus I had taken because I did a um. I was at ballet school that took three years instead of two, so it bellowed that to say I was a couple of years older than most of the students by that point. So something in me must did at the time say you can't afford to muck about here, you need to get a job. And so I remember going off to the careers office and doing those ridiculous career, you know tests where they tell you that you know, with an English and French degree, you're really fit to be a teacher or a librarian.
Speaker 1:You know that kind of thing and I just thought I'm crying out loud. I knew enough at that point to know that was not what I was going to be. Not to denigrate anybody who's a teacher or a librarian, by the way. It just wasn't my Dagenham, and back in the day I don't know if they still do this, but they would take you on for two months in the summer holiday and you would be. I mean it was like a pre-Milk Round thing and you would be. You know you would be employed. We were all put up in a shared house. So the engineers, engineers and the you know the people who wanted to work in finance and I applied to the HR scheme, which was for two months. I got sent down to Dagenham and the first summer that I worked there I was put in the I mean this shows how old I am. We were put in the employee relations team and what that meant was that we helped the HR team with the you know all matters pertaining to the union the.
Speaker 1:You know what was going on on the lines whether there was the likelihood of a strike. I mean, it was invaluable really, when I think about it, it was also utterly terrifying because you know, you can imagine your average um motor plant, which you know, and Dagenham, back in 19 whatever this was 1992, I think 93 you, you had two choices to get to one, from one end of the factory to the other. One was to drive and one was to walk. And if you walked from one end of the factory to the other and the two HR offices because it was so huge were at each end of the factory, if you chose to walk, the quickest way to get there was to walk effectively through the lines. So you'd have these, you know, 40, 50 year old blokes in oily overalls on either side of you while you're toddling down from one office to the other. And it was back in the day where, you know, they didn't think twice about catcalling and what darling and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was, you know, fresh out of university and I remember just thinking, oh my goodness, this is. It was terrifying. Every time I had to do it I had to give myself a talking to, because it would have been really easy to get in the car and avoid, avoid it all. But I thought, no, I'm gonna do it. And then I remember, you know, by the end of that period so saying to one of the guys, would you say this if this was your daughter? And you know, and I thought, well, I must have grown a little bit in confidence. I now reflect and realize I had grown in confidence in, you know, to be able to say that to somebody so much older than me.
Speaker 2:But it was definitely, I think, what they call character building me, but it was definitely, I think, what they call character building. Definitely, do you know? What's so interesting is that, um, in France, the first time I came to England, I was so surprised because barely anybody say anything in France. It's so common to be catcall and it's almost frustrating. You know, now when I go back to Paris, I have to be careful in terms of what I wear because I, like I, have a lot of people following me not saying that I'm, you know, the most gorgeous woman in the world, but they just keep what they think in their, in their, in their mouth. It's like, oh my gosh, can you just leave me alone? And sometimes I pretend I don't speak French. That's the only way to get rid of them. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it's just like, oh my gosh, please give up. And so on. But you know, putting them back into their place, make them think about you know who they are, but it's good that you know you took the courage to do so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I look back and I wonder where that came from, but I think I just thought, no, this is not okay, it's not okay. And I am the person walking down these lines feeling. Well, as I say, you know, it was utterly terrifying and I didn't do it very often, but every time I did I thought, oh my God, please don't talk to me, please don't talk to me. But I think, you know, the other thing that I realized, or I was able to, with the benefit of hindsight, realize, is that some of the people that worked in that factory had worked there since they were 15 and some of them were approaching retirement, and they had been putting the same rivet in the same piece of metal for 30 odd years, and so some of them, frankly, were bored to tears.
Speaker 1:And you know whether it was me or any other member of the, you know the HR team or the, you know these undergrad holiday vacation trainees, as they called them. It was just a distraction from the utter, crushing boredom of, you know, of doing that job, of doing that job. But you know I would never. You know, I look back on it now and think, thank goodness I did that, because when I graduated and I started applying for actual jobs, I was able to go and you know I got invited to milk round interviews at Shell and SO and well, a lot of the you know, the big blue chip companies who were doing that kind of thing, and I was able to talk about HR from a position of real understanding.
Speaker 1:You know, rather than going into an interview and going, yeah, I really like people and so I want to work in HR, because, you know, anybody listening to this who works in HR will know that well, obviously it helps if you like people, but it's not just about that. You know, there's a lot more to it and that's just so different, isn't it?
Speaker 2:HR is depending people. Hr has so many different variables in terms of what it means and what you do absolutely and by that. But I want to come back to the fact that sometimes you know, when you look at you say you have people who've been here in this position for 30 years. I think it becomes even harder the longer you stay. Oh yeah, and also when you come, when you see this like, oh my gosh, is that going to be my life? Can I give you a wake-up call in terms of I need to do something else for myself, so on, yeah, so, yes, so so how does your train of, how does your career leads to? I'm curious in terms of how do you find yourself to get to where you are?
Speaker 1:so I did a couple of years in hr at shell um, and it was long enough to realize that it was going to take a really long time to do something interesting. And that again is not a criticism of anybody in HR, because I ended up back in HR in a very long winded way. It just was really slow and ponderous. And anyway, all that to say, I had a boyfriend at the time who was in marketing and he said you know, you should think about sales. And I went sales no, because my perception of sales was that that was like selling double glazing, you know, shoving your foot in the drawer, and hard selling. And I thought that's definitely not for me. And he went no, no, no, that's not, that's not it. So you should apply for somewhere like Mars or you know, or PepsiCo or Coca-Cola, so they train people to sell, and you know you should do that.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I did and you know you asked me a while back about you know who who helped you in your career. Bob Green was the first. Well, he was my first manager when I joined Mars and he was the person that took a big gamble. So Bob Green was the person who gave me the opportunity he took a risk in bringing somebody into sales who had absolutely no sales experience whatsoever, but at interview I was somehow able to convince him that the kind of skills that you acquire in HR, which is about building relationships and being persuasive and influencing people, are applicable in sales, which I think you know with the benefit of hindsight. I think is absolutely true.
Speaker 1:Quite how I arrived at that conclusion, you know 20 years ago, I don't know, but anyway he brought me in, I think largely on the back of confidence that the Mars program for training people to sell is so robust that, frankly, they could train anybody, myself included. So that's how I got into sales. They used to insist that you spend your first couple of years carrying the bag, as they call it so calling on corner shops and talking to shopkeepers about the number of facings of Mars bars on the display. And then I moved into account management and then managing reps, and then and then I moved to GSK, into their consumer health.
Speaker 2:As we continue this engaging conversation, remember that Black Rise is more than just a podcast. We're a dynamic platform where businesses can connect, collaborate and prosper with Black professionals, entrepreneurs and Black-owned companies. Our commitment to diversity, inclusion and empowerment reshapes industries and builds a future where Black excellence thrives globally. So don't forget to subscribe and give us a five-star review on iTunes. Kate, you make it sound like so easy, can you? Kind of, because it's really from HR to sales. It's a completely different set of skills. So people are listening to this right now and probably thinking in terms of how did you really do it? What did you had to? Did you have to take any extra extracurriculum courses to be able to learn? Or your observation time, how did you manage to do it so, so effectively?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, I I think, if you think about I talk a lot now when I go into schools, I talk to young people about careers. I talk about work out what your transferable skills are, and I think there are far more transferable skills from hr to sales than people would think. So you know what do you need to be good at working, good at in working in HR. You have to be able to build relationships with people. You have to be able to work out what they need. You have to be able to propose a solution that meets their needs. Sometimes you have to be able to say no and do it in a nice way. Sometimes you have to have you know, know you have to have a strategic vision. You have to be able to execute that vision. I mean, none of that is not applicable. That's a double negative. Apologies, that is all applicable in sales.
Speaker 1:Now, if you're in HR, do you want to move into sales? Not necessarily, but what you know, what I was missing as a really junior HR assistant was the pace. I didn't have the pace and I didn't have sufficient variety, and the one thing that you get with sales is fast pace and lots of variety. I mean, no day, no, two days are the same, so I guess that's the key differentiator. And then, of course, you've got to have that drive, you know you've got to be motivated by your results. You've got to be motivated to exceed your results, you've got to.
Speaker 1:You know that part, yeah, doesn't necessarily correlate with being in HR. So, yeah, no, no additional training. The Mars training, though, was very rigorous, and they did not let us loose on customers until we had had the full four week classroom training, including learning the packs and prices, I kid you not, and it was a four page document with every single Mars product in singles and case sizes and prices, and you got tested on it every week on during your onboarding, and you had to know it like the back of your hand, and I will never forget yeah, and I think that's what's important that you know there's a company that you work for allows people, if they don't have the skills to be able to be, to go up to speed very quickly.
Speaker 2:And that comes back to the rigorousness of that training process. You don't just care, okay, this is the training. Go see how you figure out and then you realize you don't know anything. But if you put the process into place and that's why I love system and systemizing work and and so forth to be able to be able to take over any new roles and that also help. It's why I see a lot of companies, not a lot. Some companies are good at having people stay 30 years, but they stay 30 years in the company, but they've done so many different roles so they shift around. Banks do that a lot. It's like, okay, I'm going to be in HR, then I'm going to be in this and so on, because they really want people to move and the longer they stay in the business, the more they have loyalty and therefore understand the product type to drive innovation and so much more.
Speaker 1:So I like that Absolutely and I think you know there is a real value in having that institutional knowledge. I mean, you know, I've been at Getty Images for over nine years now, and I was actually having this conversation just yesterday with somebody. I never planned to stay here this long, but you know, I think in any organization, if you are sufficiently curious, if you are prepared to stick your head above the parapet, if you are prepared to express an opinion and back it up with evidence, you'll be given interesting things to do. And so the job that I'm doing now is not the job that I was hired to do, and I've probably done four different roles in the time that I've been here and so I've stayed. Now, on the flip side, if you have stayed in the very same job for many years, then there is a risk, I think, of stagnation and potentially a little bit of complacency, which I think is risky.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. I think everybody should be able to evolve. Two to three years, you know, whatever, even if you see you choose around, move around, unless you are on this very long project. But you should be able to see evolution, because if you're not feeling challenged, then that you're not growing, and I think growth comes from that element of discomfort. Yeah, and the discomfort is not there. You get the good money, then you have people who then do not put the same effort in their work and you can sense this Absolutely. I absolutely agree with you on that. So for Mars, what happened then in Mars and how long did you stay with Mars?
Speaker 1:So I was at Mars for about six years. They were very strict about how you progress to the point of being able to manage people, and it took a while. I mean I work with some incredibly smart people. You know, mars is one of those companies that I think has got a really bad reputation, and completely unjustified bad reputation. I mean, back in the day people used to say when I told them I worked there oh my goodness, really, I've heard it's really backstabby and I've heard it's really, you know, it's really horrible place to work and I don't know where. You've heard that it couldn't be further from the truth. You know I, the people I mean most of the people that I worked with at the time are now leading other organizations, you know, at the highest level, and so there was a very high quality cohort of people, you know, and I know my limits and I looked around and thought, well, I'm not going to be running this company. That is not that I wanted to.
Speaker 1:But you know, the progression was going to start slowing down and I saw an opportunity at GSK and in fact, a colleague of mine at Mars, pretty much at the same time, left to go to GSK and joined the consumer healthcare division so effectively. It was still CPG, but this time it was Ribena and Lucozade and Horlicks instead of, you know, chocolate bars. So I stayed there for getting on for seven years, did um and again a number of sales leadership roles and then I moved into what they called sales capability and that was my first toe in the water of sales training. Yeah, um, and I really enjoyed it. Um, I got, yeah, a lot of satisfaction out of that process of helping people to see how they could be more effective in their roles, and that's really been my journey ever since. You know whether I've worked for myself, which I did for about six years or now at Getty Images.
Speaker 2:So wait a minute. Did you say you work for yourself? I didn't know that. You never told me that yeah.
Speaker 1:I did. What did you do? Well, when I left GSK and you know it was a sort of conflation of my time there just came to an end, there were some changes that happened that I didn't completely agree with. Plus, I met my now husband, who was based between the UK and France. So I thought, ok, well, you know, now, now's the chance to go do something else, and I'd always had that inkling that maybe I would want to try working for myself. And so I did, consulting. You know, as an associate, I worked completely for myself. As you will know, flavilla, it's not the easiest to get going, no, and you have to have a lot of energy, not only to do the work but also to be trying to find new work while you're doing the work 100%, and that was the thing that I found, I think, most challenging of all.
Speaker 2:So I always say to people that entrepreneurship is not for everybody. Some people are great at doing the great job, but entrepreneurship is a different type of animal and I absolutely I remember myself wearing so many hats, admin, before you get to here.
Speaker 2:When you do this, I mean you have to do customer service and then you have to. Sometimes it's like you know, I just want to do a job and that's absolutely fine. I respect that sometimes make actually more money in corporate roles than trying to be their own entrepreneur. It's really not for everybody and I think some people are cutthroat and I think I love the fact that people say I tried it. It's not for me, so I'm going back to the corporate world and that's absolutely fine with me, instead of saying the ego and trying to say, yeah, yeah, I'm my own self, I'm still making it, yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 1:It wasn't. I mean, it wasn't that, it wasn't for me. I, just when we came back from France, I thought I, I need some stability. And you know the other thing that it's hard to get as an entrepreneur and I actually wouldn't even call myself an entrepreneur, but you know, working for myself, it was that absence of stability that I thought actually, I do quite like this, but you're right, I think it's really important not to judge it on, you know, from either direction.
Speaker 1:I remember I don't row with my brother very often, but one of the things that we argued about was, you know, he sort of suggested that I was selling out by being part of the corporate world, and I just said we're, yeah, exactly, and I just said, well, you know, but we're different and and I can have just as much impact.
Speaker 1:I think what he meant was you're gonna have to give up part of yourself to be successful in the corporate world. And I, you know, I understand where he was coming from, but I fundamentally disagree. Just looking at the number of people that were at the Black Rise event a couple of weeks ago, most of the people in that room, for the majority of their careers, would have been the only Black person in the room in their particular organization, and that was certainly the case for me. But you know, I think what I'm really proud about is that I know that when I leave Getty Images, that I will have contributed to it being a much more diverse and inclusive business now than it was when I joined. And you know and if you're an entrepreneur, you got to do that, of course you build your own business and you know, whatever the face of that business is, you know those are all of your choices, but, yeah, you know you can there are different ways of getting to a similar outcome when, certainly when we're talking about inclusion.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Can I ask a question? Did you always have clarity in terms of what was your ideal career level that you wanted to get to, or you pretty much, I just want to be good at what I'm doing right now or did you aspire to be vice president and if so, how did you reverse back into getting to the role that you are right now?
Speaker 1:I don't think at an early stage I had enough self-confidence to put a job title on my aspirations, but I knew.
Speaker 1:I knew I was intelligent enough to be able to hold my own in most circumstances.
Speaker 1:And I think, you know, and I think that is partly down to the input of my parents in saying that there is no barrier to you doing, you know, being whatever you want to be. And you know, and your level of smart should help you get there. And that's not being arrogant and you know it's not meant to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet, but I think you know, oftentimes I in fact, back in the day, I used to get feedback from people who say you know, your mind works quicker than everybody else's and then you get impatient that they're not keeping up with you and I thought, yeah, okay, that's fair. And you know, and I think you know you have to. You get feedback sometimes that you can act on, choose to act on, and sometimes you get feedback that you choose to just pop and put to one side. You know, I know people say feedback's a gift, but you know I would say not always, so you got to decide what you do with it exactly.
Speaker 2:You have to get feedback from the right people. So for me is, when I get feedback, I want to get feedback with that uh way I want to be. It's like asking for, you know, relationship advice. Some people are single tend to prefer to give advice.
Speaker 1:They may be intentionally single and they may have some very good advice based on their experiences. But yeah, I know the point, I understand the point that you're making. But yeah, I mean, I think, as I've gotten to each level, I think it's not that I sort of started off 20 years ago and went, oh, one day I'm going to be a vice president. But as I've progressed, I've looked around at the people at the same level and thought, well, is there any reason why I can't be at the next level? Because I'm looking at the people at the next level and I'm going. Well, I could do that and and actually I think I pretty much am doing that, and so it's been more of a that kind of step-by-step process. And yes, you know getting. So I was. When was I promoted? Beginning of this year? I am happy that I have been promoted, for sure, but I am also very clear in my mind that I've earned it.
Speaker 2:You definitely earned it and you know I'll even. You know sometimes we say, oh my gosh, if people say to you that you get it because you're black, and I say so, what A lot of you get, whatever you are, because you are white and or any other color. So I absolutely accept it. If I get it because I'm black, I will take it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:And you know what, that I won't. I won't swear on this podcast, but that kind of, that kind of nonsense I have absolutely no time for. You know that it isn't. It's such an easy throwaway line when you know.
Speaker 1:You look at the number and and I love Deborah Womack and she used this word on our board meeting last week the number of mediocre white people, mostly men, in senior positions in organisations that we all are familiar with, and then tell me that you know the black people who are at the same level have not had to do disproportionately large amounts of work, be disproportionately impressive, in order to get to the same position.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember when George Floyd was murdered and you know the conversation around Black Lives Matter was, you know, right at the forefront and doing a post on LinkedIn and getting some comments from a guy who said you have no idea about my background, you've no idea about how the struggles I've had to contend with, and I remember replying and saying that may well be true, but let me tell you that whatever you have had to struggle with, the colour of your skin has not been one of them, and that's the differentiator that I think a lot of people, a lot of white people don't understand. You know, just by virtue of being white you have got advantages, because the world operates through a sphere of you know, a lens of whiteness.
Speaker 2:Well, it's time for change. So what's the future looks like, Kate. What's the future? What's? What do you have in the pipeline? What are you thinking? Your next move?
Speaker 1:well, um work-wise, big program of um change, trying to establish coaching as as the way that we lead in sales, and we've, you know, made some good, we've got some good traction. There are. There have been some really, you know, really positive signs that it's starting to take um, to take root. But, like a lot of organizational change, I liken it to trying to turn a super tankers. You know it's not, it's not speedy, sometimes it feels like the anchor is miding in the, you know, in the mud. But we are, we're making, we're making inroads and I will continue to to persevere with that. As far as the ERG is concerned, that I co-chair, continuing the conversation, you know, and it's really about supporting our colleagues in, you know, irrespective of their location, and building a sense of community so that again they don't feel that they are the only, wherever they happen to be, to be based.
Speaker 1:You know we've got I remember the very first meeting that we convened of our um, what is now an ERG, and the number of people who joined who said I thought I was on my own, you know, and even now it, you know it brings a lump to my throat because there were people who've been in the business for 15 years, you know, and they were looking around this zoom call because it was right in the middle of COVID um, and just going oh my god, you look at, look at all these people that are employees and we, we collectively represent just shy of 10 percent of the the total employees in the business and yet, until four years ago, most of us didn't know anybody else. And that's, you know. That's the massive irony and the huge value of ERGs, and it's great that our company has really invested in supporting them. I mean, we've got ERGs now for LGBTQIA+, for women, for people living with chronic conditions, and new ones are being set up all the time, but I'm very proud to say that ours was the first.
Speaker 2:Do you have also the Black Network? Do you have an ERG for Black community? We do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do. It's called the Multiculture Network and we were the first, which I'm very proud to be able to say. And, yeah, you know, continue to blaze a trail, which I'm again, you know, my desire, fervent desire, is that people entering the corporate world now do not find themselves looking around rooms as they progress vertically through the organisation and, you know, and still see themselves as the only in the room. You know that has got to change. I mean, I've been working for 20, god knows how many years and and it's still the case. It's still the case, you know, and it has to be.
Speaker 1:If companies are really serious about diversity and you know, I don't know how many more reports need to be produced to say that there is a financial imperative for diversity in terms of the impact on the bottom line you know they really need to start putting their money where their mouth is. And that means going out and actively searching for candidates who are of minority backgrounds and putting them into positions of seniority. Because, as we've proved, as you've proved by gathering the, you know, the members of Black Rise, there is no shortage of high quality talent, no shortage. So if you can't find anybody, it's because you're not looking hard enough.
Speaker 2:You're not looking hard enough or you're not looking in the right places.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:I think there's also a delusion element of they say people to just be there as soon as they wanted. I know, you know I try to say to brands every time it's like you know it takes. It takes years to build a relationship with some someone who's not familiar with your brand, in a sense that it's not just about hiring, because I'm going to be hired, I'm going to be tokenized, I'm going to be able to, to be included and so forth, and this is all part of the conversation that needs to happen before the event, somebody chooses to apply and on the other side, you also have people dealing with people who are self-disqualifying themselves. They don't even you know, and so on.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of it's not so straightforward. You think that, oh yeah, I'm going to apply, I'm going to put myself on black rise or gg, black woman tech. They're going to come and and want to work for us. You need to do a bit more work on your company side on building your brand, and I talk about brand employability a lot. It's so, so key. It doesn't happen overnight, you do, and and we talk to.
Speaker 1:We talk to brands about the same from the angle of the visual content choices that they make. So so you know, if you, as an organization, say that you're all about diversity, but I go to your website and all of the images of people who are purporting to be employees are of white people, I'm not buying it.
Speaker 1:You know, it's the coherence that I think a lot of organizations are missing between what they say and how they then communicate. So you know, when we're working with companies, we're talking to them about well, what, what messages do you want to send? And and then, importantly, what messages are you sending? What content choices are you making? How diverse are they? How representative are they? And I remember I've been at a conference a couple of years ago with. It was west midlands, and they had done a set of ads where they had had to say this person, this image has been posed by a model because we recognize that we are not diverse enough. However, we want more people from these communities to apply. So, if this is you, we want to hear from you, and I thought that was refreshingly honest, you know, because we recognize you've got to start somewhere, but it's the. It's that kind of pretending to be something that you're not. Yeah, to your point, the inauthenticity is what really hacks people off.
Speaker 1:On the flip side, you know, going into schools, I often hear young people say, well, I won't apply to somewhere where there aren't more people who look like me, and to which my response is always but how realistic is that? You know, why not be the first or the second, and maybe then you can start to build enough of a cohort such that you progress together through that organization. But you know, really, I think it's, it's completely understandable but, you know, disappointing to hear when you know, when young people are just self-selecting themselves out of applying because you know there are organizations who want to be more diverse and, yes, they may not be looking hard enough but they also don't get applicants. I mean, we don't always get applicants that are diverse for even roles where there should be no reason not for there to be diversity. Or, you know, a diverse slate at least so interesting.
Speaker 2:And one thing I picked up on what you just said was so important is about the element of you know. If you're not there yet, be honest about that journey and recognize where you want to be. But I think if you're trying to portray an image that is false, people can smell the rats right and they will not. It costs a lot of money. It costs a lot of money to hire somebody. Trust me, if you work with a recruitment agency, they take their cut, so you want to make sure that that person stays and you don't lose their money. But I think it was.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed our conversation, kate. This was really really good. If you had one question I would love to ask you is if you think about your legacy, how would you like to be remembered? I would like to be remembered as somebody who spoke their mind and made a difference. Like that Make a difference. Everybody Make a difference by listening to this fantastic conversation and sharing this conversation with people who need to hear this. There were so many great takeaways from this podcast episode and, as always, I always advise you to listen to it twice. Kate, it's been such a pleasure having you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you for asking me, favilla, I've very much enjoyed our time, my pleasure, always my pleasure, and for all our listeners. Make sure to go back and take some notes and see what can you apply today. I think it's about action. What can you apply today based on what you learned today, and I will see you next week, next Sunday, for another episode. Bye, everybody. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Black Rise. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share. We hope that you found this conversation as inspiring as we did. Share your takeaways on social media and tag us as we wrap up. Remember that you can always stay connected with us. Join us on this journey of elevation, motivation and empowerment. Let's rise together, break barriers and create lasting change. Subscribe now to stay updated with our latest episodes and visit theblackrisecom to find out more. This is Black Rise, where excellence and impact converge to redefine the future. Until next time, keep rising.